Was Marvin Hagler better than Muhammad Ali?

I’m not good at this stuff. So to discredit all of you I’m going to agree with the majority on this. Reflect on that.

 

I don’t think strictly speaking Floyd or Ray relied on reflexes the way Ali did. They had years of honing and anticipation to draw from. They weren’t just pulling back like Ali they knew what was coming before it was thrown because of there training.

 

I will never forgive Hagler for coming out orthodox against Leonard, the most ignorant choice he could've made beside wearing a 40 pound costume during his ring walk and gassing himself out by the time he stepped into the ropes (thank you Wilder).

 

Every single fighter relies on reflex.

I think we need to really dig in and define these terms.

Ali was a 1-2 puncher - he sometimes mixed hooks and hookercuts into this flurries, badly leveraged uppercuts at times but he usually threw a jab, jab, cross. He knew what was coming back at him either based on where he was in the ring or what he had just thrown.

He practiced countering and outboxing for years and years in the gym. His pulling back was something that he honed over years and years of sparring in gyms, amateur, winning the Olympics. He, too, anticipated what was coming - look at the head and hand feints and how he pulls back from throwing the counter when he sees the opponent doesn't lead. It's every bit as intentional, skilled and nuanced as those who have superior fundamental foundation - the difference is in the defensive responsibility whilst executing the technique.

I know what you're saying and in essence I agree to an extent, but I think they all relied on reflex, just that Ray and Floyd were much more the technician to Ali's showman so it looks different on film, but the intent, the trap/bait and then the reflex to time and respond in that split second to land the counter is the same.

 

I agree with most of what you’re saying. Maybe I misinterpreted you. I think It’s almost a spectrum in some ways with Ali closer to end that is reactive and instinctive and Ray/Floyd closer to the opposite end. But it’s all up in the air to me. I don’t know.

 

These P4P topics are near impossible to answer. I’ve never understood P4P.

 

Come again?

Whose business is it anyway? Life is just one, endless, improv.

Answer to NO ONE but your own good self. If you can sing and dance, things go much more easily. If it’s all done in super slow motion, even better.

I am in tune with your speak and understand exactly what you are saying and the substance behind it.

Is that a good thing? Nanu Nanu? Lol, I am kidding, ‘tis a good thing.

Keep ‘em coming, great stuff!

PS - Send my regards to PCP Granny.

 

I would say that yes, Hagler was better than Ali. I think his division was tougher and that his opposition was overall better. I think that he was better drilled and that his fundamentals were much more solid. Ali was flashier and had better natural athleticism in terms of reflex and speed, but when that natural ability eroded his lack of fundamentals shone through and he ended up eating punches for breakfast. When Hagler slowed down he still had 'it' and arguably managed to beat another ATG in Leonard. I feel that it's for the same reason GGG is still competitive at 40: because his fundamentals are so well drilled and because there's a vast boxing knowledge underpinning the physicality.

 

Totally respect the opinion of you guys.

Just curious, re Ali’s left hook for one.

Are we talking the more deteriorated version?

Just to isolate some examples that we are by no mean limited to:-

They were no mean left hooks that preceded the right hand when Ali dropped Williams (2nd KD? - can’t recall).

Ali of course also dropped Bonavena with that titanic left hook - and there was also a beautiful, even shorter hook just prior to that punch that set Oscar up.

In Manila, Ali sent Joe flying into the ropes with a single left hook (round 2?) that clearly hurt Joe and gave Ali sufficient cause to energetically follow up.

In Manila again they specifically replayed a crunching right uppercut that landed on Joe’s chin.

There are other examples - but in due acknowledgement, there were fights in which Ali displayed less oomph, bordering on cuffing.

Maybe those are times where we have to give consideration to Ali’s chronically bad hands possibly giving him issue and inhibiting commitment to his punches.

I always noticed that while Ali’s hands were dimensionally larger than average (in due proportion to his overall size) they weren’t ham fists or at least not noticeable for their mass.

Rather, Ali’s hands appeared more in line with those of an artistic person, a painter, piano player etc., designed for deft touch.

Of course there is no rule of thumb (excuse pun). Elton John has chubby little hands but boy can he play the piano. Rod Stewart, Elton’s long time sparring partner, often mused upon Elton’s apparent, physical anomaly relative to his abilities.

 

Yes, he was. Not as flashy, but much more consistent, serious, versatile, and mean. You can also argue that he never really lost a fight, though I’ve heard Monroe’s victory over him was convincing.

 

P4P is an artificial, one way, concept that doesn’t allow due credit for the management of one’s greater size and relative skills upheld.

Before you even address skills, P4P almost immediately affords advance credit to the smaller man over his much larger counterpart. The generally “natural” order of things.

You can accurately measure P4P strength - the original P4P concept which has been expanded into the less finite world of relative skills.

 

Yeah, unfortunately Marv’s ring IQ rating took a serious hit when he made that election.

He must’ve believed Ray was such an easy victim (and many of us did) that Hags thought he could first indulge himself by outboxing Ray before immediately flicking a switch and punching Ray’s lights out.

Yeah, if that went to plan it would’ve looked pretty damn impressive - the most comprehensive of victories.

But would other ATG MWs have indulged themselves and allowed Ray the all important early rounds window to gain his footing? I don’t think so.

What a nightmare for Hags. After he failed at the “I’ll outbox you” folly, he finally stepped on the gas pedal to end it asap only to find there was not a lot of gas left in the tank.

 

A lot of great posts here so far .... imo , I think Hagler is closer to him than most here are suggesting .. Its easy to be the popular guy ,, and a COMPLETELY different sport working uphill your whole career

 

Marvin gambled on his strategy to come out orthodox (for no reason genuinely) and lost tremendously. He gave away his career in those early rounds, he just didn't find out til the bell rang for the final time. I think it's a shame. But from a practical standpoint that game plan had zero thought put into it. Hagler is a switch-hitter but he is still most dominant as a south paw, how was he supposed to stand and out box against one of the fastest men to ever lace them up in a stance he was less accustomed to.

Like you said Pugg's there aren't many guys who take chances against someone like Leonard. Perhaps it was vanity that he would be adding another of the four kings to his resume.

It is probably one of the most fatal errors of any fighters game plan at that high of a level.

 

To me, related to boxing. pound for pound is the essence of sports fandom and fun conversation. It's like debating who was better Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle or, in more modern terms, Lionel Messi or Christian Ronaldo.

In boxing, because of weight and size discrepancies, Muhammad Ali, Tyson Fury and Lennox Lewis would always beat Roberto Duran. The fun question is what would happen if they were the same size. There is no right answer and it is always a hypothetical. It just makes for interesting discussion.