Ali of the first Frazier fight VS. These Swarmers/Punchers

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 8, 2022.


  1. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    I thought it would be interesting to look at how the Ali of the night he lost to Frazier would have done against other heavyweights who fought in relatively similar styles to Frazier. Considering how troubled Ali was with Frazier's style, I should think some of these fighters could also pull such a victory. Again, we are talking about the Ali of 1971 about to lose to Frazier, not a peak version of Ali of the mid-1960's.
    Jack Dempsey of "Toledo"
    Rocky Marciano of 1952-54
    Floyd Patterson of 1958-60
    Mike Tyson of 1985-88
    And just for fun, Tony Galento on his best night.
     
  2. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    Good thread. But remember Muhammad Ali from the first fight with champion Joe Frazier on March 8 1971 had only 18 rounds of actual combat in the ring after a 43 month enforced exile from the ring, (March 22 1967-Oct 26 1970) because of his legal issues of refusing military induction. Sparring is not the same as actual combat in the ring, in sparring you use headgear, larger boxing gloves, in actual combat you do not have the luxery to enjoy neither. Ali from his first title reign from Feb 25 1964 until his official banishment on April 28 1967 had a number of physical gifts, he had stamina, reflexes, footwork, timing and speed. The returning Ali had speed, but he was lacking in stamina, timing and reflexes as well as footwork. The only fighter that I see Ali defeating was Floyd Patterson of 1958-1960. In actual competition, Ali stopped Patterson on Nov 22 1965, TKO 12, and Sept 20 1972, TKO 7.
     
  3. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    Great answer. I agree with you on all these points, and that's partially why I asked this question. Most serious fans of boxing history and technique would pick the peak, Ali, over all the fighters I mentioned besides perhaps Tyson (wonder who is overall more favored on here?). This Ali, is interesting, still an elite fighter, but a ring rusty one past his best. Ali did defeat Patterson, but Patterson was arguably both past his best (not washed up) and may have had a back injury when he met Ali. That being said, I believe the Patterson of 58-60 still loses to Ali, but its worth thinking about. Also, as you said all, are you including Galento in those who would beat this version of Ali?
     
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  4. michael mullen

    michael mullen Active Member Full Member

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  5. CrouchStanceBoxing

    CrouchStanceBoxing Member banned Full Member

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    He would Beat Tyson by late KO after being down few times.
    He would beat Patterson by late rounds TKO.
    He would beat Galento by UD or like Bonavena by late round TKO.
    He would lose against Marciano, and he would get bigger beating than when he foight Frazier.
    Dempsey is 50/50.
    I can see him beating Ali but he is not known for his late rounds KOs and Ali was very durable.
    Who except Frazier stopped Ali?
    And Dempsey is not known for his endless stamina.
     
  6. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    As for my opinions on how the fights would go.

    This Ali loses to Dempsey by knockout. Of all the boxers I mentioned, Dempsey was stylistically the closest to Frazier (Frazier pretty much copied him to the best of his ability in much of his technique). That being said, Dempsey was a considerably harder hitter, and seemed to have less predictable body and head movement as well as being a better infighter. However, Dempsey was not as effective at cutting off the ring as Frazier. All this considered, I think Dempsey knocks Ali out, battering him in the middle rounds. Volume punching combined with power is key to him ending this by stoppage rather than a decision like Frazier.

    Rocky Marciano, I think has the edge here. Rocky lacks the defensive movement and footspeed of fighters like Frazier, and Dempsey and was also not as effective a combination puncher. Rocky is considerably easier to hit than all big names mentioned, but he could take those hits as well as any too. At this point, Ali's stamina had noticeably diminished, something that Rocky might be able to capitalize on with his godly conditioning. That along with Alis's rusty reflexes and somewhat slower footwork might align enough to give the edge to Rocky. While I could see this going to a decision, I think it's more likely Rocky gets a KO/TKO, at some point past 10

    When Patterson fought Ali, Ali was at his best while Patterson was thirty and clearly on the downhill. Patterson's back was also likely injured in the first round, and despite that would remain on his feet until the 12th. I believe the prime version of Patterson would have fared considerably better against 65 Ali, Ali would need ready to get business done rather than taunting him and the fight would likely have been much more competitive with Ali emerging as the victor. In this scenario, I believe a ring-rusty Ali meeting the peak version of Floyd Patterson results in Patterson winning by decision with a 1/3 chance of Ali getting the KO at some point

    A raging Iron Mike would pulverize the Ali of the Frazier fight. Tyson was faster, harder hitting, and has superior body/head movement to Frazier, only lacking Smoking Joe's stamina. Tyson's relentless body shots simply wear down Ali in the early rounds, setting him up for the big finale by 6.

    Tony Galento Fails to Moida the bum and gets TKO'd at some point late in the fight, past 8 at least. He probably KD's Ali at some point
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  7. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    Thanks, Even though a poster who shall remain nameless said I know nothing about boxing, I was watching boxing probably way before he was born.
     
  8. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    Tyson does worse than Galento? Interesting thesis. I can see why one may pick Ali over Patterson,
    I agree with Rocky, though think ole Dempsey gets it done quicker (see my other comment with my answers)
     
  9. CrouchStanceBoxing

    CrouchStanceBoxing Member banned Full Member

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    Galento was maybe not good as Tyson like Bert Cooper was not too but They have better chin,toughness and stamina.
    Tyson would beat Bonavena but hell he would never do as good as Bonavena versus Ali.
     
  10. CrouchStanceBoxing

    CrouchStanceBoxing Member banned Full Member

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    I really do not know about Dempsey because he is like Tyson dangerous only in early rounds but later not really.
    But he has better stamina,heart and chin than Tyson so maybe yeah.
     
  11. joebojoejoeson

    joebojoejoeson Member banned Full Member

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    Rocky Marciano is too small. I don't know why people can't grasp there are weight classes for a reason. Jack Dempey is too small and too crude. You might say but he beat bigger guys like Jess Willard. Willard is so crude that he makes Deontay Wilder look great. Tony Galento was a bum. Floyd Patterson would always be too small.

    If Henry Cooper could almost knock Ali out with 1 puncher than Tyson could knock out Ali with one punch. You might say but Ali beat Joe Frazier who has a similar style as Tyson. First off Ali only beat Frazier because of the butt whipping George Foreman gave Joe. Joe was never the same fighter after that. Both Tyson and Frazier are a similar height but Tyson is clearly faster and more dynamic compared to Frazier. If you believe Frazier to be tougher than that is just a opinion.

    Does it mean Ali couldn't beat Tyson? No, Tyson had problems with any guy who could move and had a good jab. That is why James Tillis almost beat him and Buster Douglas did beat him

    If they fought 10 times I would have Ali winning 6 or 7 and Tyson winning 3 or 4.
     
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  12. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Ali beats all of them. BTW I'm no Ali fan
     
  13. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Agreed. I'll add that if anyone is beating him from that list, it's Dempsey.
     
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  14. Hannibal Barca

    Hannibal Barca Active Member Full Member

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    KOs Dempsey late.
    SD over Marciano.
    UD over Patterson.
    TKO loss to Tyson.
     
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  15. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agreed, Ali would have some trouble with Dempsey early but to beat Ali Dempsey would have to knock him out and far bigger hitters than Jack couldn't do that. Tyson would have the same fate, when Ali starts talking to him and swelling his head up Mike begins to lose it . The end would come around the 12th.
     
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