Ali of the first Frazier fight VS. These Swarmers/Punchers

No that is a strawman. I haven't mentioned anyone's opinions on any of the fighters listed beside my own. What "stories" have I mentioned? I base my opinions on the fighter's technique, and to a lesser extent results in the ring. Dempsey did fight black fighters, though after meeting Kearns he did not, as Kearns steered him away from them. Dempsey did not duck Wills, but signed to fight him twice. The first time, Rickard refused to sanction the fight due to the race aspect, and thus we have the NY debacle. The second in 1925, Wills team actually voided the contract (refusing to pay a percentage before the fight as specified in the contract) and thus the bout never took place (lawsuits would come from this in the future). Of course, Wills would fight several of Dempsey's opponents, beating Fulton in 3, and losing to Sharkey around the same time Dempsey would KO him in 7. These are actual facts that can be easily researched. Godfrey had his ribs broken while sparring with Dempsey, and (allegedly) stopped pushing for any sort of fight after that. Wether the latter part is true, Dempsey did indeed break his ribs, and thus one can draw their own conclusions on how a bout would have gone. While Sam Langford believed Dempsey would blow out Wills, I do not use this as evidence as this was a subjective opinion, I think we can use our own critical thinking to come up with conclusions. How about discussing how you think each fight would have gone and the weaknesses Ali would have been able to exploit despite his inactivity?

I did not claim "every swarmer" would beat the ring-rusty Ali of the FOTC. My point is, Frazier's style and technique troubled Ali, not just in his victory but in all of their fights. Considering Ali was troubled by fighters of the Swarming variety, it can be reasonable to assert that other top-level elite-level swarmers may be able to have similar successes at their absolute best (Galento was a bonus)

 

Sure Dempsey was three years younger than Frazier of the FOTC when he lost to Tunney, but we need to factor in activity and ring wear. Frazier's victory over Ali was only his 27th fight, while Dempseys Tunney's loss was his 77th fight, thus having nearly three times the fights Frazier at that point even despite the three-and-a-half-year layoff. Pro fights are not the same as amateur fights (watch current heavyweight Golden Gloves matches and compare to pro matches), but If we want to include that, Don't forget, Dempsey fought dozens more fights that remain unrecorded.

The only reason Willard is considered the "Apex fight" is because it was the most brutal beatdown seen in boxing at that point, and is the oldest available filmed fight of Dempsey and perhaps shows him at his absolute peak. I argue his wins over Fulton, Sharkey, Gibbons, Brennan, Morris, Rematch with Flynn, Miske (first meeting), and even coming back against Firpo are greater.

On your point on Dempseys opponents with his first round KO's, some were journeymen, mostly earlier in Dempsey's Career, but his first round KO's against Fulton, Gunboat Smith (rematch), Morris, Flynn, show his KO power wasn't all hype as these top contenders faced the same fates.

I agree prime Frazier would have soundly beaten Tunney, but I along with most others would also agree the Dempsey of 1918-22 would have also beaten him.

 

How long do you figure Tyson lasts?
You think FOTC Ali does that well against Rocky? I wouldn't think he would get cut that early,
Dempsey goes down against a hardly power punching Ali quicker than proven glass-jawed Patterson?

 

Like many fighters, Dempsey can be overrated while often being underrated. While Dempsey became inactive during his title reign, lost his motivation and will to train, and his bout with Carpentier was only impressive due to being the first million-dollar gate, Dempsey practically cleaned out the division en route to winning the title, having over three times the number of fights when he challenged for the title than Frazier did. He knocked out the top contenders, usually in round 1. His style was aggressive while technically and defensively sound and Frazier noted that as he almost entirely based his style on Dempsey. He was the fastest HW on his feet and quickest puncher up to that point and understood the physics behind getting all the power behind his punches. Hardly a myth,

 

Interesting thesis. While I believe this version Ali loses to Tyson, I'd be more inclined to believe Rocky lasts the distance over Tyson if Ali is to win. As for Dempsey, he was only knocked out once, in a fight it's widely reputed he threw. He fought harder punchers than Ali, with smaller gloves, and seldom was cut, much less knocked out. I don't see Ali who was not a powerful puncher knocking him out. Dempsey and Frazier had very comparable chins.

Oh, and how long does Galento last?