Thoughts On Sonny Liston - Over rated Or Not??

Liston never complained about Ali not going to a neutral corner and didn't throw any punches once Walcott signalled for them to carry on fighting.
It's been said that as Liston was going to take a dive, he'd go at the earliest opportunity.
Ali's wrist flick didn't have his shoulder behind it and wasn't even an arm punch.
Every time I watch that 'Fight' it looks worse

 

I find his story intriguing but thats just me. Sonny's career will always b plagued by the Ali fights and I think he sometimes gets too much flack for the Martin fight. Do like watching him and will read books on him b4 making a deep dive into his life in and out the ring.


Again my opinion, he ain't as overrated as Bowe is in H2Hs bcuz I feel Marciano n Louis do better against him than a lot of ppl do but that's subjective ofc. Would have him outside of the top 5 greatest heavyweights but I think he has a case for 8-10. Just a very polarizing fighter I'll have a blast reading on him.

 

Again, Liston explained his delay in arising due to Ali hovering above him - clearly highlighting wrong doing on Ali’s part, not his own (Liston’s).

So, even though one might argue the merits of the anchor punch one can’t argue against Ali being in heavy breach by not going to a neutral corner - and the reasons for the neutral corner rule are obvious - and Liston clearly explained he felt at risk.

The plot holes never get addressed.

It’s like someone broadly explaining that a magic trick is done with smoke and mirrors but not actually going in to details to explain how it is all done and fits together.

Again, WHY, before 10 secs had elapsed since Liston hit the deck, did Ali preempt his own victory with his histrionic circling and raising of his arms IF he was so concerned about a “fix” and wanted Liston to arise?

Ali clearly didn’t recede to due and required distance throughout the WHOLE episode - even when Liston arose Ali was ridiculously standing right behind Walcott’s back - it was a joke.

Liston didn’t throw any punches? Ali was illegally on top of him when Walcott waved it back on and it was only a few seconds before Walcott waved it off for keeps.

Notably Ali made no complaints or demands for the fight to continue - immediately raising his arms.

Liston was also in great shape - why bother to train so hard for a tank job?

Liston was just a go to “fall guy” among multiple other culpable players.

 

Liston missed a left and was caught by a snapping right he didn't see coming. It was a flash knockdown that turned into something else with Ali's clowning.

To me, Walcott was in serious delinquency of his duties as referee. It was plain as day Liston wasn't really hurt and could have gotten up, JJW should at the least have made a time out and sorted it out as briefly as possible so the fight could continue.

I personally think that fight would have been much more interesting than the first, had it not been so horribly bungled. But that's just me.

I used to be on the bandwagon when it came to thinking the fight was fixed. After endless viewings and reading of debates, I think it was one of the most terrible administrative bunglings in sports history. Ali shouldn't have been anywhere NEAR Liston, neither during the count nor right after Liston got up. In fact, Ali could have been docked points imo.

Take it however one likes, that's how I see it.

 

I totally agree with your thoughts on the punch - good enough for a flash KD and Liston was good enough to get back up.

Quite an amazing punch really, in view of its speed, execution and relative impact given the less than perfect position it was thrown from.

People forget it started as an allegedly non existent, so called “phantom” punch (leaving an indelible feeling of disbelief in the first instance). but replays later indicated that a punch clearly did land and it appears to have caught incoming, lunging (= compound impact) Liston high on the cheek.

And, as you’ve described, there was so much more to digest than just the punch and the KD.

That’s why, given people claiming it was just a tap, I isolate and put aside the merits of the punch which people often get completely hung on as the be all and end all proof of a fix.

Temporarily putting the punch/KD to one side allows for (or should allow for) due examination of several anomalies otherwise - anomalies that naysayers never actually address or try to explain.

Notably, upon the first KD of Bonavena in round 15, Ali likewise didn’t recede. The ref had to go as far as keeping Ali at bay with his outstretched arm, but even then, Ali slapped down the ref’s outstretched arm to get right back at Oscar.

That’s when a ref should call an absolute time out, all things frozen and make the fighter get his a** to the neutral corner and stay there before anything resumes - including the count that shouldn’t be allowed to silently tick away before being picked up.

 

I have Liston in my Top-10 (at #10).

I do not consider this overrating him since his ledger, in terms of raw numbers, compares reasonably well against other mainstays of the Top-10, as well as those who might often be noted as HMs on the fringes of the 10.

His only 'prime' losses occurred against Ali and, even then, Liston being considered prime at this point is debatable.

Something else though, which led me to consider Liston amongst the immortals, is that he was, at the time and across the board, discussed and written about in awe and dread; a genuinely fearsome figure - like nothing seen before. More importantly, however, is that Liston was also widely considered to be a talented boxer; more than simply a physical presence, with menacing demeanor, his ability was recognized years before he eventually took Patterson out - twice on the bounce.

It is interesting, reading reports of Liston, at the time, when he was only just beginning to get noticed; some of which are distinctly atypical of the kind of puff pieces that popular figures in sport were used to reading about themselves. Instead, words about Liston tended to lay out a quite cold, clear description of him. There is a sense of inevitability in them, laced perhaps with the knowledge and the frustration which came with it, that Liston was being avoided.

Today, I get the impression he is, for some reason, under-appreciated, in the main. But, to my mind, Liston was a unique talent, who did set himself apart from his peers in rather emphatic fashion. A Top-10 position amongst the ATG Heavyweights is warranted, in my opinion.

 

Excellent post!

 

Shut up you clown.You've been spotting the same crap for 17 years. Add a bit of variety.

 

I remember Nat Fleischer having him as an all time great after the second Patterson fight.

 

Don't you have him as your number three?

If the forum consensus is outside of the top ten, how is he overrated in your eyes?

 

Fair enough. I think I have him around 5-6 legacy wise and 2-3 H2H with only Ali as a clear favorite. He was something special for sure.

 

I’ve been on the Liston train for quite some time now - thank you You Tube.

I like to think I’ve remained objective but I can’t deny that I very much like him and am very intrigued by the man.

Anyway, opportunistic link - seen before but this a very clean 4 K HL version of Liston vs Scrap Iron from El Terrible Productions who has been putting up some real quality stuff recently (not that they weren’t before).

My god Scrap Iron had a hard head. - Scraps, a legendary fighter in his own way in my book.

You can see the effects of age and lifestyle on a much slower Liston but he still looks very good all considered. But as was the case vs Martin, you can see old Sonny starting to gas a bit, his stamina nowhere near what it used to be:-

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His official list was -

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Lewis
5. Frazier
6. Foreman
7. Holmes
8. Liston
9. Johnson
10. Tyson

 

Whatever the merits of the punch, no one was more surprised at Sonny going down than Ali.
You’ve just got to look at his immediate reaction he’s gesturing for Liston to get up.
I think Ali’s behaviour was simply due to him being totally perplexed by the whole thing I think he simply didn’t know what was going on.
I think Sonny took a dive, for whatever reason I don’t think we’ll ever know.