Joe Frazier not a top HW ATG/H2H?

He had a decent title reign and won the fight of the century. He's in my top ten.

Queensbury rules boxing has been going on so long now, that the top ten is getting to be a crowded place. I really think it is more appropriate to start talking in terms of top 15 or 20. I like Frazier for high top ten, but after Ali and Louis, it gets subjective REAL fast.

 

Has recently been moved outside the top ten but most definitely a ATG.

 

Joe is definitely in my Top 10.

 

Eh, add Lewis. His own performance in his era and his H2H capabilities should earn him an easy top 10 spot on any sane list.

 

Frazier has a quality resume. Only lost to great fighters in Ali and Foreman. Really wasn’t Much separation with him and Ali in their trilogy. The negative with Frazier is the first Foreman fight, it hurts a lot. Probably no 1 loss hurts an all time great more in the division than Frazier’s to Foreman. I would say Jeffries to Johnson but that’s going way back.
Also he wasted his title defenses against poor competition after the fight of the century and for a modern fighter he has a pretty low win total.
Still he came up huge in one of the biggest matches the sport has ever seen and he has lot of quality wins that nicely balance out his resume.
He should still make top 15 imo. And could be argued back end of top 10.
Ali, Quarry 2x, Bonavena 2x, Machen, Foster, Ellis, Mathis, Bugner.
Pretty solid. 10-15 for me

 

He's not in my top ten if I had one

He's not big enough, nor versatile enough

 

#9 in my Top 10 ATG
Just outside my Top 10 Head 2 Head

 

I have Lewis at #3, no lower than #4. However, there are those who say flat out that they will not rank a guys so highly when he was starched twice (once in my book...I think McCall was a screwjob), and also slighly belittle his competition since Holy was past it and Tyson was shot.

Again, I agree with you at 3#, but it is just one of those things that is not going to have the consensus that Ali and Louis have.

 

He's top 10 ATG in my book. I just watch the actual fight videos from the late 60s into the 70s to verify that.

He had excellent power with both hands (just because his left was so good don't discount his right, I can give myriad examples), a different and interesting, effective defense, HUGE Championship Heart (he could be the picture in the dictionary definition). He beat the top guys of his day, including an under 30 Muhammad Ali.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Lewis (Foreman and Lewis trade places a lot on my list, I go back and forth)
6. Foreman
7. Marciano
8. Frazier
9. Tyson (Mike and Joe trade places a lot on my list...as insanely great as 80s Mike was, he never beat an opponent the caliber of under 30 Ali, and never roared back from a kd to win)
10. Wlad

 

I think the reason you rarely see Frazier mentioned as an ATG H2H (along with Marciano, Johnson & others), is because the newer fans very often overrate size & under-appreciate skills.

Therefore, one hears statements all the time like "Marciano would get crushed in one round by Joe Joyce, he would be a LHW today".

Complete and utter gibberish.

 

Catch, I have to agree that the obsession with the top 10 almost limits us to arbitrary and biased ratings, if we expand it as you said in terms of top 15 or 20 then it leaves room for much more fair judgement.

As unpopular it may be I have guys like Dempsey and Frazier in contention for my top 10, but I cannot soundly rate them such. I feel Dempsey, Frazier and Tyson are some of the greatest animals and pressure fighters the ring has ever held, warriors and master pugilists. But I can't in good faith let Frazier or Dempsey crack my top 10, they just don't belong there.

All 3 of the aforementioned men I feel are ATG, masters, and H2H nightmares. But Tyson took their... style is not the right word but rather methodology of fighting and elevated it echelons. We can sit here with our thumbs up our ass all day but it won't change the fact no one was a better pressure fighter than a prime Tyson. I don't like it either. But it is the case I definitely believe and I hate that he overtakes Frazier on my top 10

 

Well stated.

 

I stopped rating fighters in a numerical system a long time ago. A great fighter is still a great fighter. Period..