Hector Camacho Discussion

what drives a man to hate a particular fighter so much?

 

What do you want? People like you fault him for winning fights. What's the matter, is he too agressive for you? Maybe you'd like him to just bend over for Sugar Ray and make it easy for him the way Benitez did.

People say he was scared shitless by a man who he actually beat. Then he's matched up against a bigger, stronger man who's favored to beat him and you fault him for showing the world he's got killer instinct and that he wasn't some track star. Isn't the display of a killer instinct the same trait that made Leonard a star? You should give him credit for it instead of criticizing him.

Give him credit

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Give Leonard credit for beating Hagler. Underdog, one fight in five years, first fight at the weight, less power and momentum going into the fight.

The loss has haunted Hagler for years, not just months after the fight. That shows you that in hindsight he's looked back all those years and never forgiven himself. Many observers had his hand raised through the press before he stepped into the ring with Leonard. The man was humiliated by a natural welterweight who was dropped by a journeyman, Kevin Howard. Yes the fight was competitive and the decision arguable but Leonard fooled him and retired him for good.

At least Leonard came out of retirement to try the impossible, like fighting Hagler, then 10 years later at 40 he shared a ring with Hector.

Hagler never once tried the impossible. Always little guys moving up in weight. He got away with it against Duran, Mugabi, then Hearns. But not against Leonard. He got bitten eventually. And that bite was so bad Hagler hasn't recovered from it all these years later.

 

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Nice try son but you're talking to a pro now. What may pass for impressive or even impossible I see as shrewd strtaegy to jump on a guy who's down because he couldn't handle him any other way.

Again, where was he five years earlier? Retired? Sure he was.

We know how Ray likes to bow out and call it a retirement. He's made a career out of it. But at age 40 he surely went too far and let one soft performance blind him. The strategy that actually backfired on him!

As it turns out Leonard was lucky to be able to share a ring with Hector, not the other way around. If you ask me he should have stayed in bed.

We all know why he took the fight with Hector. He was playing him cheap because he of what Duran had done to him. Hector looked pathetic and beatable as all future leonard opponents had in the past.

Instead of running into a scared, immobile passive fighter, he ran into a tiger that wanted to take his head off. Ray wasn't ready for that and he just couldn't adjust. He couldnt keep him off and for once he was up against a figher who turned the tables on him using illegal tactics. Namely, Hector's hold behind the head and strike the head while the ref is turned. And ray was helpless against these kinds of tactics. Ray just hasnt been around enough to know what to do in these kinds of situations.

Ray had never been in the ring with someone of Hector's ring intelligence or street smarts. Hector KNOWS how to fight dirty and get away with it.

Let me show you what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7AVefJhm-g

In time you will not only come to accept him but you will appreciate him to the same extent I do.


I still dont see how it is that someone like Lalonde deserved to be in the spotlight with a legend like Ray Leonard. If Ray wanted to do the impossible he would have started defending his middleweight title against some young contenders wth life in them instead of just settling for a split decision over a useless champion on the verge of retirement. But he didnt and we had to sit thru Leonard-Lalonde, which amounted to a circus and a black eye for boxing.

had ray followed up the hagler fight with a defense against some top rated contenders like Nunn, McCallum I would have some respect for him. But he didnt so I have little respect for the man.

hector got in the ring with everyone even when far past his prime. No excuses

 

I suppose Barney hadn't taken into account the kind of condition Hagler was in. He would have had he seen Marvin in sparring 3 weeks before.

Anyone know where is John Thomas?

 

Playing Golf with Tiger Woods down under.

 

No.

 

I was never a big fan of Camacho, so my points in this thread going to slant toward criticism. For openers his nickname was a poor choice. Chamcho was not a stand and trade fighter at all. He was jab and move fighter and a bit of a punk.

If you want to be a tough person, boxing is great sport to show your bravado. Too often Chamaco's brand of toughness was frustrating the other guy by moving around, and not respecting him.

Chamaco to me picked on too many older big name fighters in their decline such as Duran 2x, Davis, Mancini, Limon, and Sugar Ray Leonard.

Wash Camacho a talent? He sure was, but I really don’t think he was a great fighter at all.

 

How could it be his best weight when he hadn't made the weight for 7 years and struggled with the weight. He was just about 35. The older you get the harder it is to make weight full stop, never mind making a weight you hadn't made 7 years.

 

This is not a valid argument. Antonio Cervantes was 35 and still making weight. Hopkins at least 36 and still a middleweight. Hagler who knows how old he really was, stayed a middleweight until the end. These people aren't exactly growing.

What was he a welterweight or a middleweight? Everyone says his best fighting weight was 147 and many say 160 is too high, not his ideal weight so 154 he should be even faster than he was at 160?

And why would Ray challenge a guy he felt he'd have trouble making weight? It doesn't make sense so I have to deduce that 154 was his best weight. Ray wasn't like Duran partying all the time and bloating 40 pounds overweight. He was always near fighting weight give or take a few. And maybe he would have made this weight sooner had he been more active

 

Did Cervantes or Hopkins go up in weight then come back down? Nope. Combine that with Leonard getting old and also not having made the weight for 7 years.

147 was his best weight in the early 80's. What about Thomas Hearns when he fought Barkley in 92 at 175. What was his best weight then 147 or 154? Different fighters of course, but always a different criteria for you. And you make massive exuses for Hearns when he lost to Leonard. You said he was struggling with the weight. And if he was or wasn't. His case aint close to Leonard's. When Hearns fought Leonard the first time he was around 22 years old and was always a welterweight prior to the fight taking place. Leonard was just about 35 years old and hadn't made the weight for 7 years before he fought Norris. That makes your view on the situation, BIASED.

Why did Jones fight Tarver when he knew he'd have trouble making weight? He was having to drop even more weight than Leonard. He must have been even more foolish. And with what you said, Leonard only having to drop 6lbs or so and asking why he did it? Then what about Jones?

 

I shudder to think.

 

You keep forgtting Leonard made this fight. Why would he take a fight at a weight he felt he couldn't make comfortably? Ray was usually trying to get the other guy to drop down to weaken him so why would ray try to weaken himself? :smoke

 

Rooster. You ever heard of the word 'choice'? Well people in everyday life make choices. Some bad, some good. I have decided and choose to join ESB which has been a good 'choice'.

Millions of troops are in Iraq fighting. Why would they go to Iraq to fight fight for their country? Rooster's awnser to a dead soldier "why did you go to Iraq when you knew their was a good chance you would get shot dead" Well obviously the troops that are being shot dead have a positive frame of mind and believe they are going to come home safely one day.

Choices, decisions, risks, etc.

Leonard believed that fighting Norris and beating him was something he could accomplish successfully. But the fact of the matter is that he lost to younger fighter, in his prime, who was exactly in the same position as Leonard was himself was 10 years earlier. Leonard was just about 35 years old. As I will have to repeat yet again, he hadn't made the weight for 7 years. I'm taking nothing away from Norris as he performed extremely well against a veteran who had seen better days.