Is Vitali Kiltschko an all time top 10 heavy weight?

Journeyman92 · Dec 14, 2022

NoNeck said: ↑

Foreman and Liston shouldn’t be ahead of him due to having 2 and 1 successful title defense and multiple bad loses. Liston didn’t exactly beat a murderer’s row either.

You obviously dislike the guy if you think Norton put together a better career. I’ll leave it at that.
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Sonny Listons record is honestly just as bad.

Journeyman92 · Dec 14, 2022

NoNeck said: ↑

These sort of guys wore thongs in the ring and doubled as chimney sweepers and brick layers in their down time. Not exactly comparable to modern era.
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Yeah they were better boxers honestly.

McGrain · Dec 15, 2022

@choklab you have a dedicated thread for your SHW gibberish. Don't turn every thread about every subject into that discussion.

Pepsi Dioxide · Dec 15, 2022

In an alternate reality he turns pro in 1989 at the age of 18 and starts fighting contenders and belt holders by 1995. Would of been very interesting

Mendoza · Dec 21, 2022

Pepsi Dioxide said: ↑

In an alternate reality he turns pro in 1989 at the age of 18 and starts fighting contenders and belt holders by 1995. Would of been very interesting
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It would be. He would catch Holy, Tyson and Moore on their way down. 18 is very young, He could have went to the Olympics in 1992. The European qualifications are different today, I think and Ukraine was still party of Russia. At any rate 1992 was weak class Super heavyweight Olympic class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics_–_Super_heavyweight

He would in theory turn pro in 1993, and be ready for contenders in 1997. Holy, Tyson and Moorer were around then. So was Lewis and Bowe.

Gazelle Punch · Dec 21, 2022

McGrain said: ↑

I think that the problem is that Vitali was never champion champion. He was a beltholder. The OP compares his standing as a champion with that of Joe Louis. I do not accept this is reasonable. Joe Louis was the world's heavyweight champion. He brooked no resistance. He met almost all the top contenders of his era and where he missed one they were generally #1 for weeks only.

Vitali never beat the best fighter in the world excepting himself, although he only had one chance at it, as noted, because of his brother's success. But it was also rare for him to meet a fighter who was the best in the world excepting himself and his brother. So even if you change the rules for Vitali, his numbErs still aren't that impressive in this regard. In matching the very best competition, Vitali lacks compared to the men he would be compared to in the top ten - Louis, Marciano, Ali, these guys all met the best in the wrold excepting themselves often, and did the business. Vitali, he just didn't do that (Again, even if you change the rules to accomodate the brother problem).

The second problem is actual wins. Who is the second best fighter Vitali beat? Sam Peter? Adamek? That is bad. If you look at the second best heavyweigh that guys like Marciano (say, Charles) and Lewis (say, Holyfield) beat, they are ATG fighters. That matters more than "rounds won ratio".

And finally, Vitali has no generational win. He had one chance at Lewis, very difficult, and that loss shouldn't be held against him IMO, but the second heavyweight on his fought-list ranked for greatness - not h2h but atg standing at heavy - is Byrd for me. Here, we have a troubling quit job, worse, for me, than Liston's to Ali.

In short, no. I don't personally hold Vitali within my all time top twenty for "greatness" although I think he can sensibly be argued onto that list. There is no case for Vitali being ranked top ten at heavy for me - it wouldn't make sense under any circumstances. Unless you're discussing head to head, then rank him where you like, #1 is fine with me. Most people can't consistently call what will happen in the boxing this weekend, so I can't take a list that professes to predict how all this boxing would shake out at the very highest level tht seriosuly but hold no objections.
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This is my opinion of the matter. His thin resume and failing to beat the two or three (maybe 4) best fighters of the time is what kills him. Failed against Lewis and Byrd and never met his brother (understandable) or Tua or Povetkin. His resume is to thin but as far as thin resumes goes he prob tops the list of fighters for me due to his stamina and chin.

Saintpat · Dec 21, 2022

Mendoza said: ↑

Is Vitali Klitschko an all-time top-ten heavyweight?

There are two ways to rate people, head-to-head matchups vs the field of ring accomplishments.

For the purpose of this article, let's focus on ring accomplishments and use Ring Magazine, " the bible of boxing " as the standard for ranking them. You may think the heavyweights ranked contenders of modern times would wipe the ring canvas with the heavyweights ranked contenders of the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's as they are much bigger. Like three weight classes bigger and have more defined traditional skills than history's previous giants. Or maybe you feel that the contenders 60-100 years ago were better despite glaring differences in height, weight, and reach and sometimes records of the contenders themselves. Whichever you believe, we can use ring magazine ratings and records achieved as a benchmark for history regardless of which side of the argument you are on

Let's proceed using the standard of Ring Magazine heavyweight champions! Fighters such as Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, V. Klitschko and W Kiltscho. All accomplished heavy weights. These 12 men are who I will use for the study and should be on most top 10 heavyweights list.

Quality of opposition fought. Based on my findings, Vitali was 8-2 against opponents ranked by Ring magazine when he fought them.

The list does not include former champions ( Wba, Wbo, Lineal, Ibf or Wbc) such as Herrie Hide or Shannon Briggs or former contenders, only Ring Magazine contenders who were ranked when Vitali fought them.

Unfortunately, Vitali could not have fought his brother, who often occupied the spot of Champion or the number 1 or 2 contender.

1999 RTD by 9 Chris Byrd (#10 at Heavyweight) * shoulder injury, Later Byrd would be the number 1 ranked contender. Vitali was way up on all three on the cards.

2003 - TKO by 6 Lennox Lewis (Champion at Heavyweight) * cuts. Again, Vitali was leading on all three cards.

2004 - TKO8 Corrie Sanders (#3 at Heavyweight)

2004 TKO8 Danny Williams (#9 at Heavyweight)

2008 - RTD8 Sam Peter (#2 at Heavyweight)

2009 - TKO9 Juan Carlos Gomez (#9 at Heavyweight)

2009 - RTD10 Chris Arreola (#6 at Heavyweight)

2009 - UD12 Kevin Johnson (#10 at Heavyweight)

2011 - KO1 Odlanier Solis ( Number nine at Heavyweight)

2011 - TKO10 Tomasz Adamek (#2 at Heavyweight)

Here Vitali is 8-2 or 80% winning record. Vitali has a better winning percentage among ring magazine champions than Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Frazier, Ali, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis. Only Marciano and Holmes have a better winning percentage. Louis, Foreman, Ali, Lewis, Wlad, and Tyson have more total wins over ranked contenders. I would need to check their records on ring magazine's top contenders for the percentage of opponents beaten. The point is Vitali rates in the top ten here among Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, and W. Klitschko

Best rounds won to rounds lost ratio: Not only in the history of heavyweights but among all boxing champions. He was towering above Ali or Holmes on the scorecards, who, in fact lost more rounds to lesser men. Vitali combined boxing ability, power, size, good footwork, smarts, defense, counterpunching, and ring generalship to the maximum by engaging his opponents and forcing them to fight on his terms. Vitali never trailed on any scorecard after three rounds and never lost more than three consensus rounds in any fight. This includes fights where he was injured ( Byrd and Chisora ). Very impressive. Rates number one overall among Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Forman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, W Klitschko.

Never floored by a punch. Ever. Vitali and Oliver Mcall are the only two in the history of the lineal champions never to be floored by a punch, and Vitali fought plenty of punchers who landed hard to test his chin/durability such as Lewis, Hide, and Sanders. 47 pro fights. Rates above all among Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Foreman, Tyson, Hoyfleid, Bowe, Lewis, W. Klitschko. In fact this accomplishment rates very highly in all of boxing history

One of the best knock artists of all time, with 87.23% KO ratio. It went down a little with age, and so would any champions. Better than Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Forman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, W Klitschko. This rates number two of all time among legendary champions.

Other feats:

One of the most active heavyweights on the punch stats, compared to Marciano or Frazier's activity level. Punch stats are not historical records, but this is impressive, nonetheless. In boxing the guy who outlands the other wins at least 80% of the time. Often the punch stats are better than some of the official judges and can be used to sniff out bad judging. Vitali always fought men over 200 pounds and just one of his opponents had a losing record. Much like Ali he lost four years of his prime and focused on politics leaving one to wonder what else he could have done and how many more ring magazine-raked opponents he would have beaten.

**So far, we are talking about a guy who was incredibly difficult to outbox, was never floored that had had the power and stamina to stop anyone early or late, who stood 6'7" 1/2 tall, weighed 245-250 pounds in shape, an 80" reach**

An all-time come back. Which boxer came back four years out of the ring, and no warm-up fights not only to take his title back but to win nine title defenses in a row at age 37-41. The answer is zero. Foreman came back to be Ring Magazine champion over 40, that's it.

Total Title Defenses.

1. Joe Louis 27 title wins NYSAC, NBA

2. Muhammad Ali 23 title wins NYSAC, WBA, WBC

3. Wladimir Klitschko 23 title wins WBA, IBF, WBO

4. Larry Holmes 20 title wins WBC, IBF

5A Lennox Lewis 15 title wins WBA, WBC, IBF

5.B Vitali Klitschko 15 title wins WBC, WBO

That's it. Everyone else is lower.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavyweight

Made the hall of fame in his first year of eligibility and was the leading vote receiver in his class. A very rare honor.

Using the above benchmarks and history and accomplishments, Vitali Klitschko is one of the top 10 all-time heavyweight champions. Since there is a lot of data here, I reserve the right to edit it, but I ask for proof of any errors found. You will get credit if you find one. The all-time head-to-rankings would be a different read, but in this man's opinion, Vitali would rate very highly there as well. I will answer anyone's questions if you have them, just keep it classy.

-Mendoza
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Punch stats lol.

THE BLADE 2 · Dec 22, 2022

No because he does not have the resume. His brother on the other hand has a strong case for Top 10.

Pete grigg · Dec 22, 2022

Top 25 maybe but his career record and overall quality if opponents he beat do not warrant any higher.

JohnThomas1 · Dec 22, 2022

As far as i'm concerned if you don't have Vitali in the top 100 YDKSAB.

mr. magoo · Dec 22, 2022

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

As far as i'm concerned if you don't have Vitali in the top 100 YDKSAB.
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I feel the same about Steve Zouski.

JohnThomas1 · Dec 22, 2022

mr. magoo said: ↑

I feel the same about Steve Zouski.
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Fair.

Mendoza · Dec 23, 2022

THE BLADE 2 said: ↑

No because he does not have the resume. His brother on the other hand has a strong case for Top 10.
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Did you read post #1 in this thread? By the standard of Ring Magazine ranked opponents with can be applied to all dating back to the 1920's and is very good gauge of competition yes he does! Sure Ali, Louis, Holmes and Lewis beat more to them. That's not the point! His accomplsihents which I listed are very impressive. Fell free to post hater like posts, they don't change the facts.

THE BLADE 2 · Dec 23, 2022

Mendoza said: ↑

Did you read post #1 in this thread? By the standard of Ring Magazine ranked opponents with can be applied to all dating back to the 1920's and is very good gauge of competition yes he does! Sure Ali, Louis, Holmes and Lewis beat more to them. That's not the point! His accomplsihents which I listed are very impressive. Fell free to post hater like posts, they don't change the facts.
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what is his best win? an old and fat corrie sanders?

Mendoza · Dec 23, 2022

THE BLADE 2 said: ↑

what is his best win? an old and fat corrie sanders?
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Did your read the first post in the thread? To answer you silly question on that night Sanders was the 2nd best heavyweight in the world, and Vitali completely out boxed him, mixing in body shots and took the gutsy Sanders out. I'm not sure if Sanders or Peter, was his best win. He's got a lot of quality wins vs ring magazine raked opponents doesn't he?

Maybe this means something to you. No man dominated better on the score cards in terms of rounds won to rounds lost, not even Ali, or Holmes and Vitali is way above Louis...or whomever you want to match him with.

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Is Vitali Kiltschko an all time top 10 heavy weight?

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