I am genuinely curious as to how the forumites opinions on certain less than unanimously well regarded fighters has changed. Primo Carnera, heavyweight champion of the world (1933-06-29 to 1934-06-14), the superheavyweight blueprint, the Ambling Alp. Possibly one of the most divisive, underappreciated, and infamous of heavyweight champions. Effortlessly carrying into the ring over 260lbs into the ring during 15-round era, he was more of an out-fighter, boxing from behind a stiff left jab and stepping back, leverage guarding, and posture breaking or clinching when threatened. At times however he could charge in like a roid-raging bull, paving way for hooks and uppercuts, right hand uppercut in particular. Has your opinion of his skills and achievements changed? Long has raged the discussion about the extend of his fights' results being controlled. While fight fixing and mafia influence was widespread (with the likes of Cus D'Amato literally risking their lives fighting against corruption), a clear connection between the more severe accusations and management-newspaper conflict can be drawn. Ultimately the actual extend of fixes is impossible to determine. I personally consider majority of his fights at professional level legit, with some fixes probable at the beginning to protect his drawing power. Out of the five champions ruling in between the retirement of the great Jack Dempsey's conqueror, Gene Tunney, and the arrival of Joe Louis, Primo Carnera actually had arguably the best albeit equally underwhelming run. Max Schmeling won the title on a foul and defended a month later, giving Young Stribling the only stoppage of his career in Ring's Fight of the Year, then took a year off and lost to Sharkey. After taking the title off of Max, Sharkey failed to defend for a year and lost it to Primo. Both Baer and Braddock took a year or more off and lost the title during their first defense. Carnera defended thrice in a year (Loughran, Uzcudun, Baer), actually taking on the lethal Max Baer, despite having many softer options, especially since he just rematched the Philly Phantom and the Basque Woodchopper. His loss against Baer remains one of the greatest displays of courage and resilience ever saw on film: injuring his ankle early on, Carnera was deprived of his main way of defense, that being distance control. Regardless of when one assumes the injury occured, Carnera still refused to give up after grueling war with Wilder level puncher, taking some rounds off of Max despite knockdowns. Just like with any fighter, his resume has asterisks (vast size advantage, opponent's age, sickness in Shaaf's case.) Nonetheless, the notable names he fought and beat are as follow: Jack Sharkey Tommy Loughran x2 Paolino Uzcudun x2 Ernie Shaaf * (Shaaf took on Primo while hindered by sickenss) King Levinsky x2 Art Lasky As well as the likes of Pierre Charles, Don McCorkindale, and Jack Gross. Stribling and Godfrey DQ wins aren't really worth mentioning given their dubious outcome and possible fixes. Not spectacular, but respectable. Personally, I've grown to respect his accomplishments and the colors he brought to the heavyweight landscape and the history of pugilism. Probably belongs in my top 5 of favorite heavies.
He's always been better than he gets credit for. Some of his early fights were undoubtedly fixed, but he improved and became a very high quality fighter.
Carnera's manager said 33 of his fights were fixed by him ,several of his opponents had their purses held and, or were suspended. Cus D'Amato was a paranoid hypocrite who was partly financed by mobster Fat Tony Salerno,D'Amato's hands were as dirty as the IBC's his phoney crusade against corruption was a blind to protect Patterson from his tougher contenders . D'Amato pilotage of Jose Torres hindered the Puerto Ricans career imo blocking his chance to become the middleweight champion. imo Carnera was a fair boxer who lacked power,who fell apart when hit on the chin.He could stop a smaller man if he trap him in a corner and club away at him. While undoubtedly a brave man he did turn to the referee in both the Baer and Louis fights asking him to stop the fights in the case of the Louis fight the referee Arthur Donovan said Primo said,"give it to heem".Who can blame him? Art Lasky was an unranked 20 bout fighter Carnera fought him in1932 ,he does not appear in the Ring Annual ratings for another 2 years,Carnera had 67 fights under his belt when they met. Uzcudun is last ranked in the Ring annual ratings in 1928 he fought Carnera in1930 and 1933.Levinsky was ranked no 4 in both 31 and 32 but may not have been ranked for their fight. Its interesting that once the mob dropped Carnera his wins began to dry up and he began losing to journeymen. His high ko percentage must also be taken with a large dose of salt imo.
Carnera often features in discussions of the worst lineal heavyweight champion, and I see him as being more a middle of the pack guy to be honest.
I view him a bit better after years of watching the man. He was unfairly judged in his time. A " SUPER-DREADNOUGHT " He beat the very good Gross and fought some of the good black fighters that even Joe Louis did not ie, Gains, Harris, Godfrey, Hanyes ect
In general terms I think that he would best most of the weaker ones. By that I men the ones that only had a couple of good wins.
Maybe Burns due to size? Hart Willard? I'd slight;y favour Jess owing to superior durability. Braddock? It's a possible but likely? I can;t really pick Primo over anyone else. Possibly Leon Spinks? I'll leave the alphabet boys out.
If you look at the men who are serious candidates for being the worst lineal heavyweight champion, you are looking at men with only one or two really good wins, outside their unavoidable title winning effort. If you look at Carnera's resume, he has quite a few good wins, which puts him in the next strata. You might take that to imply that he would have had a fair amount of success, against the strata below him. I don't think it is out of the question that he might have beaten somebody like Corbett, Patterson or M Spinks based on size and awkwardness.
I tend to agree with you on that. Of the Lineal Heavyweight Champions, I think Primo has good chances of victories against James J. Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Jess Willard, Jack Sharkey, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Leon Spinks, Michael Spinks, Buster Douglas, Michael Moorer, Hasim Rahman, Shannon Briggs, and possibly others. That would seem to put him about in the middle of the Lineal pack, as you said.
Many of Da Preem's fights were absolutely mob controlled, but when he became champ, he behaved honorably and fought like a lion. The man had guts and heart. DJ I don't agree with many of the guys you list, but certainly he'd be tough for most of them. With proper training he'd earn a title shot today, and possibly could beat guys like Parker, Chisora and Whyte.
I suppose it depends on what you class as good wins? Levinsky Godfrey Was it on the level Uzcudun Unranked Neusel Quit cut eye Sharkey Visibly past it even if you accept the legitimacy of the KO
I think Fitz would punch holes in Primo ,Willard was as big, more durable and a better puncher. Prime Sharkey made him look ordinary Patterson would be much too quick for the light hitting Carnera imo. Primo was a sucker for a right hand ,whatever faults Ingo had he could really bang with his right ko for the Swede imo.M Spinks would be too crafty for Primo it would be Cooney all over again.Tokyo Buster beats Carnera up. Rahman and Briggs stop Carnera imo.Moorer stops him too.So tiny Tommy and Hart and maybe Neon Leon . Which still leaves Carnera down around the bottom of the pack.imo.