Wlad Klitschko V Sonny Liston

Of course. I stand corrected.

 

Politely, why do you think Wlad couldn’t control the distance on Liston?

 

or according to Wlad himself he was 'drugged'

 

And the Liston from the Marshall fight gets poleaxed in 2.

Do you care to put prime against prime?

 

I remember watching the Liston-Leotis Martin fight in High School on Wide World Of Sports on TV in December 1969. Sonny has his way...he decks Martin but can't put him away...then Liston gets cut...Cosell mentions that Sonny is tasting his own blood and he's covering up...and how the fight has changed! Sonny had a bit of the "dog" in him... the fact that people here have Liston steamrolling some of the all time great heavyweights...(who never quit)...is laughable! He KO's "china chinned" Patterson in 1 round in 1962 and 1963....then in the 2 biggest fights of his career...he folds up like a ...(as we used to say)...a "cheap suit!". Things don't go his way...he's in trouble...just like Tyson!

 

That jab and grab defense of Klitschko’s wouldn’t work on a peak Sonny Liston, who in my opinion has the brute strength to force Wlad out of the ring anytime the bigger man tries to bully him.
Also, sonny does have the reach advantage over Wlad, meaning he could and he would put his hands on Wlad's chin.

Sonny by KO.

 

Thank you sir! Great minds think alike.

Liston was a lot like Mike Tyson....a bully who intimidated some boxers. When the unafraid guys....Like Ali...didn't crap their pants, he sometimes folded up. Sometime.

So in this matchup, if Wlad comes in motivated and fearless and jabbing....he has a damn good chance of winning.

 

Actually Vitali was looking visibly tired vs Byrd, he'd missed alot of punches and Byrd looked stronger in the 2nd half of the fight. People tend to think of it as a fluke win for Byrd, but Byrd did alot of good things in there. He parried Vitali's jab constantly taking it away from the bigger man, made Vitali miss alot, backed up the bigger man on occasions hitting him with straight left hands.

At the time of the stoppage I had it a competitive close fight in the region of 5-4, and even though punchstats can be misleading. The actual stats were more or less pretty even in punches landed.

 

I'd never watched the fight. My assertion that Vitali quit because of his injured shoulder, rather than being gassed, was based on what I've read and heard.

I've just watched it. I wouldnt describe Vitali as gassed at any stage.

The fight was more competitive than I'd been led to believe. Vitali threw a lot and landed only a relatively small proportion completely clean. Byrd didn't do enough to win a single round beyond dispute, imo. I scored 1, 2, 4, 6 and 8 clearly for Vitali. 3, 5, 7 and 9 were close and could reasonably be scored either way. So your 4 rounds for Byrd (I assume you meant 5-4, not 6-4), is just about defensible, imo.

 

I wouldn't say Vitali was gassed, but he was looking more visibly tired in the 2nd half of the fight. Byrd had made him miss alot of punches. And Byrd's defensive skills I believe triggered Vitali's shoulder injury in the same way Byrd did to Holyfield.

No doubt Vitali was ahead in the fight, I but don't think Vitali was ever dominant in the fight. That's a myth that's been created over the years just like Nunn vs Toney.

I have my official scorecard and write up of the fight in the scorecard thread here, I'll try and find it and post it for you in a bit.

 

I'd agree he was more visibly tired in the 2nd half of the fight, most fighters are. All I said was he wasnt gassed, which you've agreed with.

I agree dominant is a stretch too far. Lederman had his fellow American 6-2 down after 8 (if his score of the 9th was given, it was after I stopped watching). That seems not only a reasonable round by round score, but also a fair reflection of the balance of the fight in general. Vitali clearly on top in a competitive bout.

 

The 9th round was Byrd's best round of the fight, I think 6-3 after 9 rounds is reasonable

My scorecard and write up from last year.

Chris Byrd vs Vitali Klitschko

1 Vitali
2 Vitali
3 Byrd
4 Vitali
5 Byrd
6 Byrd
7 Vitali
8 Vitali
9 Byrd
10 Vitali doesn't come out for the 10th round

86-85 Vitali

A few things i want to point out about this fight, Byrd basically nullified Vitali's jab by parrying it constantly with his right jab. Which is huge weapon to take away when your fighting the much bigger man. It also shows Vitali's jab was nowhere near as good as Wladimir's, who had a pretty potent jab where as Vitali's was just poking it out there. I also felt like Vitali was a bit too tentative in this fight, he didn't really impose himself on Byrd. And he allowed the much smaller Byrd who isn't a big puncher, to start backing him up after the 5th round.

As i've said before i've never understood where this myth came from, that Vitali was "dominating Byrd". For me it was a very close tactical fight, and Byrd was starting to come on in the 2nd part of the fight. As Vitali was starting to tire from all the missed punches, and i think Byrd deserves more credit for his performance especially since he took the fight on late notice. Yes the injury to Vitali's shoulder was unfortunate, but Byrd had tired Vitali out from all the missing punches, and his defensive skills contributed to Vitali's shoulder injury. Byrd was coming on strong in the 2nd half backing up Vitali, and hitting him with the straight left hand.

 

6 - 3 after 9 is reasonable.

I couldn't see the 6th for Byrd, but have no issues with how you score the other 8.

"Backing him up". Hmmm. There were a few instances where Byrd moved quickly into range and Vitali tried to maintain distance by moving back. Even some where Byrd landed his left. So, by literal definition, yes, there were times his action resulted in Vitali moving backwards.

It's not a significant takeaway from the fight I'd use to describe it though and imo, not consistent with other fights where the term is typically used. Margarito started backing Cotto up around the 6th round of their 1st fight, for instance. Chavez Jnr had Martinez backing up and in trouble in the 12th of theirs.Vitali spent the majority of the fight either on the front foot or trying to maintain the distance needed to out box the far smaller man on the outside. Thats true of the 2nd half of the fight too.

At no point did Byrd hurt him even slightly, and beyond landing a few scoring shots, I'd say Byrd didnt even bother him at any stage. Except of course, unless, as you claim, his slipping a shot caused Vitali's shoulder injury.

 

I know what you mean he wasn't "backing him up" in the literal sense round after round, but there were occasions where the bigger man Vitali gave ground. And honestly i don't think Vitali hits anywhere near as hard as Wladimir, regarding one punch power nor is his jab anywhere near as potent or effective. And that's two attributes Wladimir has over Vitali, which is why i think he was alot more effective vs Byrd. I also don't think Vitali ever really imposed himself on the much smaller Byrd.

True but you could also say the same for Byrd, at no point in the fight was Byrd hurt, troubled, or in any difficulty. For me as i've said a few times, i think this fight has grown into a myth. That Vitali was dominating Byrd up until he quit with the shoulder injury, and that's not the case IMO. It was a tactical chess match that Vitali had a clear advantage early on although still competitive, and Byrd made some adjustments trying to fight more aggressive in the 2nd half trying to take the lead. And i thought Byrd had made it a close fight up until the stoppage.

 

Describing Vitali as giving ground on occasion is fine.

I agree Wlad was clearly more explosive, with better 1 punch power, than Vitali.

I agree their respective fights against Byrd are a good example of how Wlad was the more effective of the 2 at controlling distance, with his superior jab being 1 key factor in that.

Style wise, it's no more of a surprise to me that Wlad was more dominant vs Byrd, than Vitali was less vulnerable to Sanders or Peter.

Finally, I agree Byrd wasnt hurt at any stage. He was clearly losing the fight though, and the shoulder injury notwithstanding, it would have taken more than the occasional raid into range to win it. 1 sided domination in favour of Vitali? No. Clearly winning at the point the fight stopped? Yes, imo.