Leonard vs Hagler and Whitaker vs Chavez reveiw

I recently rewatched two controversial fights, Leonard vs Hagler and Whitaker vs Chavez. I thought there were some interesting parallels. Both feature ATGs, both have the fighter vs the boxer, both have a fighter rising in weight to add to their legacy. This has probably been done a thousand times but here are my thoughts, and how they have changed since first viewing.

Leonard vs Hagler
Point 1 - Leonard threw serious punches
Despite Hagler's post fight comment that he was never hurt Leonard definitely hit hard enough to back Marvin up. If he didn't Hagler could have simply swarmed him, but when Ray stood to fight Marv respected his punching power and kept a tight defence. Some of Ray's punches had a "thwack" you could have heard from the back rows. I maybe wrong but I feel many people don't rate Ray as a puncher and underestimate his power. Tell that to Dave Green! Having said that by round 10 his punches had been reduced to blistering by showy clusters with little power.

Point 3- Leonard didn't just run though out the fight
While Ray's grappling in the first few round is frustrating once he had taken Hagler's measure he often stood toe to toe with the most fearsome middleweight in history. Hagler couldn't physically dominate him as I think he expected.

Point 4 - Hagler may not have won a 15 round fight
I long believed if the fight had gone 15 rounds Marv would have won. I now see an equally tired fighter to Leonard in round 12. However I also feel Hagler paced his fight like he was fighting for 15 rounds. He spent far to many early rounds figuring Ray out and throwing away valuable points. Considering he looked so tired at the end of the 12 round, having spent the first four rounds pacing himself, I don't see a fighter who was guaranteed to provide a final surge if there were three rounds left. Having said that I think Ray's legs were probably in slightly worth shape by round 12, but he was still punching back.

Point 5 - Hagler threw the better quality punches

I still feel this. He caught Leonard with the only punches to significantly stun either fighter and his body work was creative and definitely slowed Leonard down. You could see the gas go out of the balloon for Ray from round 7 as Hagler started his mid fight surge. We could actually see the effects Marvin's punches had on Ray which I think is a key thing when scoring a fight. Once Marv moved back to southpaw and started using his uppercut he unlocked the puzzle to a certain extent and set up his mid round charge.

Point 6 - A smaller ring helped Leonard
I agree with this still. Ray just had that little extra wiggle room and combined with his athleticism he could not only have more room to escape but he could use that extra space to play mindgames with Marvin and find good angles for his counters.

Point 7 - Leonard's mind games got to Marvin
I still think Ray got in Hagler's head both before and during the fight. As I mentioned earlier Marvin seemed to give Ray too much respect, his corner kept encouraging him to rough Ray up. But Marvin seemed tentative, and as I mentioned earlier it may well have been because Ray hit harder than he expected. There were moments where I felt if Marvin had simply gone full Hearns fight he could have finished it. While the chances of sustaining a cut or running out of gas in the final two rounds where high I also don't think he would have been KO'd and as the fight progressed his corner must have know he was slipping behind. The fact that after finally pinning Ray down he found Leonard still had time to mock him must have been hard to take.

Point 8 - Leonard got the crowd on his side
I feel Ray knew to use his showmanship (like Ali) to help get the crowd on his side and perhaps slightly sway the judges. Sometimes looking like a winner is enough in a close fight.

Point 9 - Ray made Marvin fight his fight and felt like the winner
I think Leonard simply out thought Hagler and my overall impression was it felt like his fight.

Point 10 - Marvin was an excellent boxer
Despite being caste as the fighter to Leonard's boxer, and despite missing many wild swings due to Ray's mobility, Hagler showed what an accomplished boxer he was. He was far faster than I remember and he struck me as one of these guys who doesn't seem like he is doing that much but when you watch the replay you see how well placed his punches are.

Point 11 - Marvin was far from shot
I very much understand those who say Leonard beat a faded Hagler, and as I mentioned above Marvin's legs did not look like they were guaranteed to take him through another 3 rounds if it went 15. However objectively Hagler lost due to errors in his game plan more than anything. Also he was fighting one of the fastest most intelligent boxers of all time. I would put the Hagler of this fight in with many middleweights from the past and not feel he didn't stand a chance. His chin was still very solid as were his punches.

Final thought
I scored it a draw, 114-114, many rounds were desperately close. I think that Ray did not do quite enough substantial work to take a champion's crown. However while a draw would have been anticlimactic it would have left both fighters with kudos while being a fairer result. This was still and exciting fight, even without the moments first time though when you were feeling Hagler was on the verge of stopping Leonard and seeing him not only hang on but fire back. While there were only three or four moments of serious action and those only briefly the level of technical excellence makes it a classic.

Whitaker vs Chavez

Point 1 - Whitaker knew how to rough house
I was surprised by how Whitaker manhandled Chavez and also his many borderline to low blows. Going in one would have thought it was Chavez who would get the warnings, and there were a few coming back from Julio, but Pernell had some Fritzy Zivic in him for this one!

Point 2 - Whitaker won the body shot war
While Chavez dug in some vicious shots and his trade mark whacks to the hips it was Whitaker who won the body shot war. Both in the number and quality of his body shots. You could clearly see their efficacy as Chavez's assaults gradually slowed in pace. Having said that it would be interesting to know how much the worse low blow affected Chavez from that point on.

Point 3 - The legend of Chavez
Listening to the commentary you could see how much the legend of a fighter can sway people. If you listened on the radio to the comments you would think it was a close fight down to the wire. Quite often it sounded like Pernell was the challenger and not the champion and the commentators seemed to be surprised that Whitaker (despite his numerous titles and gold medal) was putting up such a beautiful display.

Point 4 - The Shadow of Don King and Meldrick Taylor
I think Whitaker's team must have known King would protect his prime asset by hook or by crook. I wish Pernell had taken a bit more of a chance in the final rounds to really stamp his win in the judges minds. I feel the fate of Meldrick Taylor was in everyone's mind's going into the last round and I feel Pernell boxed as if it was in the bag rather than that he was fighting Chavez but also Don King and corrupt judges.

Point 5 - Points for low blows
Micky Vann is obviously either blind or corrupt but despite taking upon himself to remove a point from Pernell for low blows it was a joke that this would have made any difference, Whitaker clearly won even if you docked a point.

Final score
Whitaker 116 - Chavez 112

Final thoughts on both fights, which is the greater "victory"?
There are many factors to take on board and I hope replies will outline some of these in more detail. A lot rests on how faded you feel Chavez was compared to Hagler at these stages of their careers. While it would be crazy to suggest Chavez could not box excellently I feel a lot of his style was about physically imposing his will on his opponents. I feel he perhaps became addicted to this side of his fighting style and undervalued his underrated boxing skills. On the other hand it could simply be that he was surprised that he could not bully Whitaker into submission. He looked pretty solid at Welterweight and IMO Whitaker has always give the impression of being quite slightly built. This contrast made Pernell's rough housing more surprising. I think this is a similar thing to Hagler in his fight with Leonard. In neither fight was Chavez or Hagler seriously hurt, I think frustration and tiredness got to them first. However between the two only Hagler seriously shook his opponent. Chavez landed some brutal body shots but never seemed to connect cleanly to the head. Whitaker's conditioning must have been excellent to survive the body shots.

Personally I rate Whitaker's performance as greatest for a several of reasons. One he was fighting against a heavily pro Chavez crowd. Two he looked fresher at the end of the fight than Ray did against Hagler. Three Pernell did not have to resort to flashy smoke and mirrors. Despite his previous tendency to show boat he was at his most focused and every move was pitch perfect. I got the impression Whitaker won through sheer boxing brilliance while Ray used other factors to sway the fight his way.

Let me know what you think about these two great fights!

 

Thanks. I only consider Whitaker win greater aesthetically, while Ray was more exciting I just find Whitaker fought with less smoke and mirrors, it was just excellent boxing. Maybe the finest use of defensive to set up an offence I have seen.