Were both Willard and Ali both totally oblivious that they were involved in fixed fights?

For reasons others have mentioned, I really don't believe that Johnson and Willard was a fixed fight. In the case of Liston and Ali 2, I question if a fix would have even been necessary. I really don't see Liston beating Ali in any case. I suppose it's possible that the affair was fixed to end in the first round, but I've never seen any evidence that someone made a ton of money by betting on an Ali 1st round KO. Personally, I don't think the fight was fixed. I could buy that Liston didn't want to take a beating, or was scared (for whatever reason), or looking for a way out of there...reminiscent of Walcott and Marciano 2.

 

Read Jack Johnson “In the Ring and Out”. The guy was an all time great but **** me he tell a tall tale.

 

Don't have the exact set of quotes but Ali thought he legitimately floored Liston and that he, on his own volition, stayed down. In short, there were threats on Ali's life prior to the second fight that got bad enough for the FBI to get involved to protect him. Ali thought that he hit Liston with a shot powerful enough to floor any man, but he also thought Liston was afraid that the threats focused on Ali would spill over and affect Liston. Basically, some guy tries to shoot Ali and Liston gets hit in the crossfire. He also said he was taunting Liston when he was down.

Obviously there are conflicting reports and Ali could have lied but I am still going to take his word over any one else's unless Liston himself were to have said something which we'll probably never know. I'm not saying that IS what happened, but that's what Ali, at least when he wrote his 1975 autobiography, THOUGHT had happened.

 

I don’t believe the fix was in for the 2nd fight and certainly not the 1st fight.

Having said that, Ali contributed heavily to the mayhem in Lewiston Maine.

Before Liston even had time to arise, Ali was immediately screaming for him to get up.

Point being, there was not enough time for Ali to deduce that Liston might not arise when he started demanding that Liston get back up.

So, logically, that might lead us to interpret that Ali didn’t believe that his anchor punch was sufficient to drop Sonny in the first instance - though Ali gave good credit to that punch at various times.

That then might lead people to “second guess” Ali and assign the motive that Ali was only trying to legitimise the fight after the fact by waxing lyrical about his right hand.

Possibly.

But wait, there’s more. IF Ali wanted Liston to arise so badly lest observers cry a fake fight, why did he preempt his win by starting victory laps, with arms raised, even BEFORE 10 seconds had elapsed since Liston hit the canvas? So much for wanting Sonny to arise and avert any notions of a fake.

And we know Ali didn’t retreat to a neutral corner at all during the whole time - he ran tight circuits around Liston while Sonny was on the deck - always readied to recommence immediately IF Liston got back up - which we saw play out when Sonny did finally get back up.

Then of course, after a few moments of action, Walcott stepped in to stop it on Fleischer’s say so - and upon that controversial move, Ali had no problem with that an immediately raised his arms.

Liston himself said that he was reluctant to arise with Ali in such close proximity (which was illegal). I don’t think Liston feared Ali per se, but he did believe Muhammad was certifiable so it wasn’t out to lunch to entertain the possibility that Ali might hit him on the way back up - suffice to say, Ali wasn’t acting exactly sane during the period following the KD.

The whole thing was a circus - but of course, Liston presented all too easily as the convenient “fall guy” by default, without due critical examination and balanced address.

When Liston was in the vicinity of any smoke - then it was always “deduced” that it must’ve been Sonny who started the fire.

I blame the superficially, sympathetically employed Step’n’Fetchit. It was obviously ALL his fault.

 

Dotting all the “i”s and crossing all the “t”s as usual Mc. Great post.

 

I don’t think either fight was fixed, but to go further I don’t understand the thought behind the premise.

Why would someone who is fixing a fight (bettor, mobster, promoter, whoever) want to tell anyone other than whoever was necessary to know it? In fact, they wouldn’t ideally even want anyone to know they were involved except their own people who they trust completely and would probably not want the person taking the dive or perpetrating the fix to know who they were doing it for. That’s how you keep from legal ramifications.

If I’m fixing a big-money Vegas fight in the more modern era, I’m having a trusted agent put betting tickets under the referee and judges’ hotel room doors the night before the fight that they can have cashed in if the guy I want to win wins. The judges/ref don’t know who put the tickets there or who bought them. They just know if they lean the right way and that guy wins, they can have someone collect the winnings and their bank account gets bigger.

Likewise, if I want Fighter A to find a soft spot in the fifth round or whatever, I’m having a go-between arrange it with the fighter who needs to lose — someone the fighter probably doesn’t know so they can’t point a finger and someone who doesn’t trace back to me … maybe an ‘associate’ of mine sends in one of his trusted soldiers from across the country who does the deed and then hops on a flight so nobody can say ‘it was Fat Tony, he works for Pat’ if the authorities get involved. They make the payoff (and underscore it with a threat if things don’t go how they’re supposed to). So why would I tell the other fighter? Or anyone else outside my most trusted inner circle? It only puts me at risk and in no way assures the fix will go down the way I want it to go down.

So someone has to explain to me the logic of widening the circle of people who are ‘in on it’ and what the upside is there vs. the downside.

 

This is the way I've always leaned. I don't think that was a legitimate knockdown, and Ali himself evidently didn't either.

 

It’s bad enough having one fighter who’s an awful actor - but that could still perhaps leave some room for doubt given the apparently legitimate effort put in by the other party..

But two bad actors….? That could potentially put suspicions of a fix beyond a reasonable doubt for the majority.

Even the dumbest Focker should know that you’ve got to keep the circle of trust super tight.

 

Well if that’s what you want to believe, but Ali’s instant reaction didn’t look like a man who was acting.

 

I wouldn’t argue, it’s that type of judgement call.

It began as a punch that virtually no one saw - therefore, they didn’t think there was even a punch.

Even though a punch could be clearly seen on the replays, I think the mud of the original perceived “phantom” punch still stuck.

So then, the people who claimed there was no punch then moved to claiming that the acknowledged punch was not sufficient to even put Sonny down.

Why? In part it was due to Liston’s prev. proven ability to take a shot and also because some people didn’t think that the punch looked all that anyway.

BUT, Ali did wobble Liston in their first fight -not with a single shot, but instead a combo. Still, Ali was able to hurt Sonny, and that wasn’t in most people’s forecasts, let alone Ali beating Liston.

I think the punch looked pretty good but I couldn’t confidently say it was sufficient for the KD - but I do lean that way - but only good enough for a flash KD.. If Liston was as old as some sources indicate, things can deteriorate fast - including resilience. Liston also commented on Ali’s power after the first fight - which was a surprise to Liston.

As to Liston lolling on the deck, there’s some credence to his being reluctant to arise due to Ali remaining in close proximity.

There’s a rarely seen side view of Ali dropping the counter right on Liston, I’ve only seen about 2-3 secs worth of it but it appears to be legit.

The speed of the punch was amazing and the instant it hits Liston, he drops.

But really, it was, is and always will be a tough call without great evidence to support any opinion over another.

 

"Get up sucker ,no one will believe this."

 

Christ like, are you serious? Ali was a repeated adulterer in all his marriages openly having affairs in front of his spouces and causing them to divorce him. Nat Fleisher did not believe the Johnson-Williard fight was fixed and that Jack's later admitting to it was for needed money for a signed confession. The 2nd Ali-Liston fight has several unknowns including what was wrong with Sonny, battered in training camp, unable to jump rope or time the speed bag it was later speculated he may have had a small stroke.

 

I found the vid that includes the side of the KD in the Ali vs Liston rematch. I don't know why it isn't included more often in treatments on the fight. Anway, I've watched it at X .25 speed, and it's still crazy fast. The brief clips starts just after 1;26 but I've time stamped the link to start there anyway: -

This content is protected

 

The punch was not only fast, Liston was countered and did not see it coming. Those can easily lead to flash knockdowns and can cause a fighter to go down even more than a heavy flush bomb that a fighter sees and braces himself for.

 

So you feel that Walcott quit in his 2nd fight with Marciano?