Ingemar Johansen vs Cleveland Williams

Ingo, he was smarter and better overall.

 

Look I don’t care if Ingo was 119-0 when he fought Patterson, I don’t care if he was the champion of Europe, Asia and Antarctica, I don’t care if he was undisputed heavyweight champion for a year and I care not one iota who was gifted what (sports can be an inherently unfair endeavor). I actually always kind of liked the guy, but I stand by my assertion that he’s an afterthought when it comes to the history of the world’s heavyweight championship and I think the people who have him about 40th all time are about right. Liston absolutely goes through him like a dose of Epsom salts and Williams has a better than even chance although I said it could go either way. And I ain’t gonna change your mind and you ain’t gonna change my mind, so be it.

 

If Williams flunked a fight against Sly Jones and got demolished by Satterfield, then he’s not beating any World Champions.

 

But Choc my man, it’s just as easily said: anyone who got DQ’d from an Olympic final for passivity, got absolutely flattened by Patterson and who expressly avoided fighting Liston might be at high risk of being KO’d by The Big Cat.

We can shout out and over magnify who Ingo fought and beat but there’s an awful lot of “names” of the era he didn’t cross paths with - much like Patterson himself during his reign as Champion.

If Williams can land just a few of those “invisible” punches be laid on Liston - Patto could be in very big trouble - such trouble that he won’t even be able to play Jack’n’Box as he did with Ingo.

If Ring IQ includes being smart enough to not even climb into the ring against certain fighters - then Ingo’s Ring IQ was through the roof - the Einstein of boxing,

 

That post sums you up beautifully chok and fully exemplifies your level as a poster in just 20 words.

 

Williams finished what Patterson started.

A peak Ingo couldn’t take the power of Brian London.

 

What you say has a ring of truth, and I admire what Ingo accomplished all the more for it. I haven't rated the panoply of all the heavyweights who have ever fought like many of the posters on this forum. I think it's an absolute waste of time; it's okay for aspiring historians who are trying to find some way to get a grasp of history, I guess, but I've been through all that and don't need it any more. I can easily see Ingo rated about 150th or worse, but that doesn't matter to me. It only makes me admire him even more! In this world of chance and inequity, it's not how good you are, it's how much you can accomplish using the moxie and god-given talent you were born with.

 

Very nice post Kid!

 

This "kid" is in his 70s iirc. But I agree, it's a very good post.

Edit: Sorry I just realized you were referring to his last name.

 

There’s nothing on Williams record that even remotely shows he deserves consideration in this match up. It’s like picking ike Ibeabuchi over Mile Tyson or something. Or Jeff Merrit over George Foreman. Or Charlie Retzlaff over Jack Sharkey.

I just think it comical that so many posters are so irked that Williams didn’t get to knockout better regarded fighters in real life that they need to push an idea that he could do such things in fantasy fights.

 

Ingo accomplished way more in much fewer fights. Anyone actually checking Williams record on boxrec will realize what an extremely padded record it was.

Williams believers like to point out that Williams fought more ranked guys. Did he fight the number 1. followed by the champ in back to back fights (both undefeated at the time!)?
Did he knock them both out in less than 4 rounds?

Different class Ingo was.

To put it into context, the champ today is Usyk followed by Fury. 8, 9 and 10 are Parker, Hrgovic and Sanchez. There is quite a gulf there yet by stating the number of top 10 guys, you make no adjustment for quality. Williams may have had a 50/50 against the Parkers and Hrgovic of the time but he when he got the chance, he couldn't even beat a past his prime Machen who had taken a terrible beating from Johansson.

He lost against Terrell who was inferior to Johansson.

Jones and Satterfield both beat him. Johansson never lost to that sort of competition.

One thing is hoping and rooting for Williams to beat Johansson but in order to think that Williams should be the favourite in this fight, you really need to stretch your imagination.

 

If you actually knew anything about Williams, you'd know he didn't have an amateur career at all so knocking out those "tomato cans" is how he learned his trade.

Also, he stopped fighting these guys by the time he got out of the military in '57 which is hardly a late stage in his career.

But like I said, your value isn't boxing knowledge, it's the entertainment you bring to the table.

Anyways, do you think you're ready to answer my question now? Are you or are you not Bah Lance?

 

Machen was already losing to Lightheavyweight veteran Harold Johnson by then. Still Williams couldn’t beat him. He got a draw. Later Elmer Rush drew with Machen. No boosting Elmer?

 

Yeah, I knew the kid was one of our slightly more mature members - excellent poster.

 

That's right the twenty years old Williams would not be beating any world champions.
But we are discussing the prime version of Williams!
Williams 20 years old lost a dec to Jones a year later he ko'd him in 6 rds.
Twenty years old last minute substitute Williams was ko'd by thunderous hitting Satterfield.

If Brian London ,deemed an unfit challenger for the Euro tile could knockdown Ingo and render him helpless only to be saved by the bell,what would a prime Williams do to him?
The Euro heavyweight title, ended with Johansson staggering to his feet, his eyes glassy and his arms hanging at his side. Johansson, 200, apparently had the better of the dull fight until the final minute. He concentrated on his left jab to pile up points, and never landed his famous right hand. Brian London, 206, carried the fight but he could not land a solid punch until the final seconds when he stunned Johansson with a left and crashed him to the canvas with the right. The count had reached four and Johansson had just lurched to his feet when the bell rang. Referee Andrew Smythe of Ireland, the sole judge, awarded the fight to Johansson." -Associated Press

Although Johansson was the European heavyweight champion, this bout was non-title and scheduled for 12 rounds due to the EBU deeming London an unfit challenger for the European title.

Post fight comments:

• "I would have stopped the fight if the bell had not saved Johansson. He could not have continued." -Referee Andrew Smythe
• "His kid sister sure must be better than that." -Brian London, in response to a remark made several years earlier by Johansson when London had signed to fight Patterson for the title. Johansson scoffed at the time, "My kid sister can beat London with one hand tied behind her back."
• Want to play the "spin game"?

Here you go!
If a one month off 20years old Ingo ran away from Ed Sanders all night how would he react when the Big Cat climbed through the ropes?

1952-08-02 Ed Sanders 40 6 0
Messuhalli, Helsinki
L-DQ
2/3
event bout score wiki
Olympic Games-Heavyweight-Final
Johansson spent the entire bout backpedalling, without throwing a single punch. After receiving several warnings from the referee, he was finally disqualified for not 'giving his best', and was not awarded the silver medal.


Your shameless spin is typical of your posts and the reason you are held in contempt by many here.