The Joe Louis vs Billy Conn struggle - possible/probable whys & wherefores.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Apr 14, 2023.

  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Thanks mate. Overtrained may have been a teeny bit lacking on my behalf. I was more looking at him being "flat" due to no breaks for so long and staying low in weight with, as Seamon put it, no recreation.
     
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  2. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Terrific post.
     
  3. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I recently read a book by Ed Gruver about this fight and the gist he proposes is to simply give the plucky Conn credit for doing what he did. And there is some reason to believe that; Conn's track record against decent heavies leading up to this fight suggests he was going to be tough to handle, and even his power was beginning to show itself more with the added weight. Under the best of circumstances for Louis it didn't figure to be an easy night.

    It's also possible too that Louis was just a little burned out by his exacting schedule but his accelerated rise to the top of the rankings in the mid-30's shows just how fast he was moved and his level of activity was quite impressive even then, irrespective of the "Bum of The Month Club" stuff. He was used to working a lot.

    The 199 pounds thing looks like more of a factor than it probably was. When you're that size, the loss of perhaps two pounds isn't going to mean as much as it obviously would to a lightweight or something, but if he had to sweat it off the morning of the weigh-in to make it look good on the scales then that's just crazy and ill-advised. Not sure if that was the case, but I could see that affecting sharpness and strength.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Been a while since I watched the fight..but I never bought into the accepted narrative of the fight anyway.

    I always saw it differently. And As a good win for Joe.

    Conn was fighting hard enough to keep Louis off him. That’s how he was doing so well. He fought like that until he couldn’t keep Louis off him anymore. I thought Louis was in the fight from the beginning and slowly breaking billy down. That’s how I always saw the fight.

    Billy beat enough good heavyweights to legitimately give Louis the good fight that he did. But like I say, I disagree that Billy ever had any real control in that fight.

    His best moments came out of fighting for his life. Every exchange Conn won was out of keeping Joe off him. to me, it looked like Conn was “winning the fight but losing the battle” if that makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2023
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  5. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I mean really if you want to look hard enough you can always find excuses for fighters.

    I'm not saying your doing that in this thread, but could Louis have legit reasons for his performance ? Possibly.

    But theres also logical stylistic reasons why Louis had issues vs Conn, for one Louis is quite static and it makes sense the fleet footed Conn would give him stylistic issues.
     
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  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, with overtrained i meant the part that he perhaps trained to a too low weight.
     
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  7. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    I don’t think any excuses are necessarily being made for Louis - he still won of course.

    It can be conversely said that some people have looked at the complexion of this fight too hard to try and reason a major chink in Joe’s game.

    I know it’s easy to say Louis appeared sub par but it’s equally important to attempt to rationalise that observation and to try and ascertain why he was.

    Louis was renowned for his economy.

    I think he became even more economical as his career progressed, when his scheduling and opposition presented more like a less inspiring 9-5 job, a job for which Joe always did just enough so as to not get the sack (read = lose his title).

    Sometimes, more difficult work was placed in Joe’s intray (read: a more inspired and talented opponent than Joe had recently been accustomed to).

    That extra work load sometimes saw Joe’s economical approach bite him in the a**, but we also did observe Louis do so much better in the rematches - rematches in which he wasn’t so economical and somewhat more inspired.

    Ready to take on the now known quality and quantity of the work load.

    Suffice to say, Louis of the first Conn fight was a far cry from the notably more mobile and energised ‘35 version that destroyed Max Baer.

    It’s often concluded that Louis modified and strategised himself so much better for rematches.

    I would also say that for rematches, Joe simply came in more purposed and inspired, fuelled by greater motive.

    I liken Joe’s fists to guidance missiles - he tended not to launch until he had absolute lock on - thus his amazing strike rate when he did throw.

    Conn might’ve put Joe in doubt with his movement, making The Bomber second guess himself, but I def. observed a Louis who appeared unusually reluctant to pull the trigger for head shots.

    If Louis fired and missed due to Conn’s mobility and evasions otherwise, that would be proof of sorts of Conn’s making Joe miss - but again, I saw a Louis who wasn’t throwing like he usually did.

    I had a quick look at Joe’s bouts vs Mann and Pastor. I saw their movement cause Joe to miss at times but I also saw Louis still gunning and launching for the head and ultimately landing definitive punches before the fight became unduly protracted.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2023
  8. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    I think my reasoning and quoting was pretty solid. There were some factual things going on and i am more than prepared to add Conn put on a terrific showing. The worst kind of guy to be a bit stale against for Joe Louis is a skilled slick one.
     
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  9. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Conn was a great fighter; he was quick, prime, well skilled and tough. He'd already won big fights, beaten quality opposition as a light heavy and had beaten ranked heavyweights to earn his shot. Why wouldn't he give Louis a hard fight?

    It was a bit like Taylor Chavez (without the controversial stoppage). One guy was winning but was also getting ground down whilst doing it. IMO those Louis body shots eventually took Conn's legs away.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Billy was winning rounds. But Billy was being hunted down the whole time.
     
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  11. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Boxers can be troublesome for Boxer-Punchers.
     
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  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Tyson, in his video on former HW greats, said something about Louis starting to slack in training once he reached the top. Maybe he did, complacency will get most at one time or the other. Especially when combined with Louis's hectic schedule.

    I think it's a good observation about Louis's rematches, and I agree that it might well have been down to pure motivation more than any tactical adjustments.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
  13. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Where ever Louis was at, it seems we all agree Billy fought a great fight, so there’s nothing to be taken away from him. He was also a tough son of gun, because he still took some decent shots in there - Louis certainly gave it to him to the body in some sequences - Billy must’ve been in the best shape (or near enough to) of his life.
     
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  14. greynotsoold

    greynotsoold Boxing Addict

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    You can distill it down pretty easily.
    Billy Conn was a very good, very smart fighter. He earned his Intelligence in fights with Zivic, Kreiger, Apostoli and that is a higher quality education than what is generally available in the heavyweight division.
    He moved very well, was very fast,had a lot of heart and a lot of skill and came in prepared to fight the fight of his life.
    Joe Louis was a destructive machine with every punch in the world and he took Billy Conn lightly because of the size difference.
    You have to put Conn in perspective. He had so many fights at 18,19. By the time he was a heavyweight he was growing into himself; most of his knockouts came at that weight.
     
  15. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    I'm pretty dubious on that. Schmeling taught him a shocking lesson (yes it had a technical side as well) about dogging it in training and even as good as he was i don't think it possible to have his ridiculous longevity against, as McGrain pointed out, so many top 2 challengers.
     
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