What if Louis had refused to serve in WWII?

Not much discussion about the dead three million Vietnamese of which approximately two million were civilians. For what? Sometimes violence is necessary. Man is imperfect but usually it's in pursuit of a higher goal.

 

He’d be treated like another black man not a “Credit to his race” crap. Question is would Louis have had the strength of character to withstand the **** that would have come his way that Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali had to take. And even if he had the metal to withstand the almighty backlash he’d get how would his historical standing now be looked at?

 

Lol he wasn't even in combat. As far as i know he just held sparring sessions there

 

Ali probably would've done the same in Vietnam, I doubt he actually would've seen combat

 

True. I forgot to say that for all of Louis’s war time record crap he was a propaganda tool. Same as Ali would’ve been. BUT. If he’d have refused to serve, now that **** is different. He’d have been nothing more than another and pardon my expression “N…..”. Not a credit and all that.

 

True, all the progress Joe Louis made for blacks in America would've gone down the drain if he openly was against the war in the same way Ali was. There's a good chance he might've also been imprisoned, a lot of people were imprisoned by the US government for being a suspected Axis sympathizer.

 

Joe did the right thing . So did Muhammad. Two very different wars and two very different responses. I would add it would have been nice if the returning Black servicemen got the respect they deserved for fighting for a nation that didn't always treat them right.

 

I give him all credit for opposing that war.

The complex thing for me though is that he would have known what role Joe Louis played in WW2 -- troop morale. He would have known that would be his role, even moreso given that in Vietnam we had a ton of black soldiers in the same units with white soldiers. Allow the black HW champ to be killed in battle? Talk about a PR nightmare -- he'd never have been in danger. Given that he'd have known this (and I'm sure a meeting with some higher-ups could have been arranged to discuss), and given that he'd have known how many of his fellow Americans (and fellow black men) had been drafted against their will, I wonder a little about if maybe he should have gone, not for the war itself, not for the government itself, but for the men themselves stuck in that shithole, to help lift their spirits a bit.

Life is complex. You can support your countrymen drafted into a war against their will while also not supporting the war itself.

Just a thought.

 

Barrf, I'm not so trusting as you, and I don't think Ali would have been either. I don't remember the US Armed Forces at the time using athletes much to boost morale. Bob Hope and his babes traveling show, yes, but athletes, no. The fact that he was a Black Muslim by itself, even if Ali had not openly opposed the war, wouldn't have set very well with a lot of the top military brass and they may have had it in for him. Add in his opposition to the war, and you have another reason for the military to be out to get him.

But even if you are correct that Ali would have received red-carpet treatment in the military, should that even be considered if Ali wanted to take a moral stand against the war? Yes, persons who are not being drafted themselves can support the troops even if they don't support the war. But Ali figured that allowing himself to be drafted to actually participate in a war to which he was morally opposed was wrong. To Ali the decision was not complex at all. Either the war was moral or it wasn't. As it turned out, Ali played by the rules and was vindicated. He claimed conscientious objector status and his claim was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.

 

Do we have any other examples of athletes on Ali's level of fame that went into combat?

 

Barney Ross and Ted Williams come to mind immediately. Williams lost five years in two different wars as an Air Force pilot.

 

He contributed to the war effort. It’s like FDR said when he allowed MLB to continue after Pearl Harbor. The people who weren’t overseas fighting were going to be working incredibly hard and working incredibly long hours and it was important that they have a chance to relax and unwind, like at a Joe Louis exhibition.

 

Williams was actually a pilot trainer in WWII … he was that good … he only saw combat in Korea.

 

Jack Dempsey saw combat as a Coast Guard Reserve Commander at Okinawa, insisting on going ashore with the men he trained.

Gene Tunney returned to service at the personal request of then Navy Undersecretary James Forrestal. In the US Naval Reserve, he ran the Navy's fitness program, finishing as a Commander and Captain.

Jack Sharkey had already served in the Navy from 1920 to 1924 after being repeatedly rejected, so he missed out on WW I. He spent WW II entertaining troops while in his 40's.

Max Schmeling saw combat as a paratrooper during the Pyrrhic victory at Crete, getting very seriously wounded.

Primo Carnera was exempted from military service for serious health reasons, but as a nominal Blackshirt, he reluctantly provided propaganda for the Fascists. (His attitude towards the Fascists was pretty much the same as Schmeling's attitude towards the Nazi's.)

Jimmy Braddock (who entered with his manager Joe Gould) and the Baer Brothers were in uniform.

Ezzard Charles also served during WW II (as did SRR, and famously, Barney Ross).

JJW did not serve during WW II despite being inactive in boxing from 1940 to 1944, but he never got any stick for it. He had a wife and six children to provide for.

Rocky Marciano was drafted into the Army in 1943 and served until 1946. The Rock was in the 150th Combat Engineers during WW II, stationed in Wales with a well decorated unit receiving service stars for Normandy, North France, Rhineland, Ardennes-Alsace and Central Europe. Of course it was in the Army that he also took up boxing.

So no less than SIX HW Champions from Dempsey to Marciano served during WW II aside from Louis. Kind of hard for the Bomber not to be the sixth in that string of eight HW Titlists in uniform.

While in uniform, Louis did intercede in a conflict between Lieutenant Jackie Robinson and a white enlisted soldier who was refusing to take orders from his black superior and condescendingly mistreating him. So within the military, Louis advanced the cause of black men in uniform through his own quiet way. Of course President Reagan authorized the internment of Joe Louis at Arlington.

Floyd Patterson did not serve, but he did go to Vietnam in 1967 to support, comfort and give morale to the Marines.

Sonny Liston was never eligible for the military due to his criminal record starting in 1950 at age 20, so he couldn't have served during Korea even if he wanted to.

Since Dempsey atoned for WW I with his crucial WW II service (including the superb and military restricted combat manual, "How to Fight Tough"), Ali was really the first and only (to date) HW Champion to fail a call to military service.

Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Max Baer, Braddock, Louis, Ezz, Marciano. Quite a lineup. No way Joe doesn't go with the flow in that scenario.

I think Bivins was indeed the best active HW during the Bomber's military service after Simon II. He lost an SD to Pastor in his first bout after Louis-Simon II, then went 21-0-1, starting with a decision over Maxim, and then, in his last match before Japan surrendered. Bivins knocked out Archie Moore in six. In between, he went 1-0-1 with rival Bettina, otherwise beating future champions. Murderer's Row members, Hall of Famers, future title challengers and household names.

Godoy went 11-0 from December 1942 to Japan's surrender, as Chile remained officially neutral until Declaring war on Japan in April 1945, but Louis had already dispatched him, and his opposition wasn't remotely the caliber of who Bivins was thrashing through.

Jimmy beat Maxim, Mauriello 2X, Pastor, Savold, Ezz, Christoforidis, Lloyd Marshall, Bettina, Lee Q. Murray 2X, Russell Scott, Hatchetman Sheppard, and the Mongoose. He had five more straight wins after that, climaxing with Oakland Billy Smith before JJW, Murray and Charles finally stopped him. Bivins retired a winner with his 1953 finale over a young Mike DeJohn. From June 1942 to February 1946, Bivins was a monster. (I had the privilege of meeting Jimmy at Canastota when he was inducted into the IBHOF.)


SO, while I do not believe Ali should have been classified 1-A after being correctly designated 4-F, if he HAD been drafted, his athleticism wouldn't have deserted him, he wouldn't have learned to rely on his ability to absorb punishment, the FOTC would've been a cakewalk for him, Shavers doesn't ruin his brain and life, and he might still be with us today, healthy and well at age 81, having avoided all that post exile punishment he absorbed. Pre exile, he was a gym rat fanatic, always competing with legs in shape, never letting himself go.

 

This covers what Louis did while serving. He worked hard at his role. He didn’t see combat but he traveled to Europe while the fighting was going on, which could be hazardous to your health. (Google how Glenn Miller checked out.)

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/joe-louis-boxing