Rate Dempsey's win over Gibbons

No. Miske spent most of his career at MW and LHW, he wasnt a big HW. Levinsky likewise was a natural LHW. Gibbons got his title shot by losing his title eliminator to a MW while Dempsey was ducking his true contender. So Dempsey beats a LHW who couldnt win his eliminator against a MW by decision when Dempsey hadnt defended his title against a HW in two and a half years and we are supposed to give him more credit than he already gets for it?

 

Very solid win I would say.

Gibbons was a small heavy, but he the #2 contender in the first Ring Magazine rankings, and a very complete fighter.

Dempsey probably needed a fight where he went the distance, just to prove that he could win that way, and this serves that purpose.

 

I think that I would go with the Fulton fight for that.

 

Whilst Gibbons was only a LHW, he was brilliant. Its arguably Dempsey's best successful defence, though his reign was relatively weak.

 

Huge credit, a MONSTROUS win as it proved Jack had Championship Distance stamina against a master boxer and big puncher. (In fact, Mike Gibbons publicly slammed Tommy for having fallen in love with his power.) Without that win, Dempsey's stamina against a high quality challenger (or any quality opponent) would have forever been questioned.

Tommy would win his next 11 bouts until Tunney retired him in 12. Among Tommy's future victims were Carp (10 round NWS) and Norfolk (6 round KO).

Greb over the Championship Distance in 1922 was Tommy's only official defeat prior to Dempsey. Two months and two bouts later, Greb handed Tunney Gene's only career defeat. Gibbons officially decisioned Miske and stopped Chuck Wiggins (who drew twice with peak Greb over ten in 1921 BEFORE Norfolk blinded Greb in the right eye) in the immediate leadup to Dempsey. (Unlike peak Greb, Tommy had no trouble with Wiggins in three bouts, halting him in ten to clinch his shot at Shelby.)

After their bout, Tommy was asked how hard Jack hit. Without saying a word, Tommy removed his hat to reveal all the bumps, swelling and bruises above his brow and on the top of his head (the part of the anatomy Blackburn said would be too hard for Louis to hit before his rematch with Godoy). Gibbons, despite over pacing himself, was fading after 15. He wouldn't have lasted 20 rounds.

There's a real case for Tommy Gibbons being Dempsey's best successful title defense, and certainly his very best performance since Willard. (After Firpo BTW, he'd defended five times from September 1920 to September 1923, and three times from September 1920 to July 1921, very much a fighting champion by the standards of that era. Between Jack Johnson and Primo Carnera, his was actually the most active HW reign, something critics of Dempsey's inactivity from 1923 to 1926 may do well to consider.) Dempsey's reign can be considered better on the strength of HOFer Gibbons as five years inactive Jeffries and MW Ketchel had no business being in the ring with Lil' Artha' at all. Miske, despite having Bright's Disease, had some high quality wins after his challenge. Dempsey was the only one of his three official defeats to end via stoppage (and a full ten count at that).

Bill Brennan? Until Firpo and Miske ended his career in 1923, Dempsey was the only one to actually stop KO Bill, putting Brennan down for the count twice.

Between Firpo's second bout and his career ender to Godoy in mid 1936, only Dempsey was able to stop him before the final bell in what was really a blowout. (One legal flash KD for Firpo to nine including the ten count for Jack? And Firpo shoved Dempsey out of the ring with a stiff arm that shouldn't have been ruled a KD.) Unlike Godoy's four round TKO, Dempsey again put Firpo down for the full count. (Ignore BoxWreck. The footage shows a full count out win, NOT a "TKO").

The gallant Carp was the first one million dollar live gate and the first to be broadcast on nationwide radio. Georges was already the long time and future IBU/EBU HW champion and reigning LHW Champion. He deserved his shot. Massive gate clinches it. 'Nuff said.

It wasn't just who Dempsey defended against, it was how he did it, and he defended against two ATGs at the time they were ATGs. Tommy was better and more durable than the spirted Carp, hence he's Jack's best title win over a HOFer.

 

Fulton was supposedly filmed with Dempsey. I'd sure like to see that if that was true and still extant.

Jess Willard had far more durability than Fulton and that was for all the marbles. So we got a fuller measure of Dempsey at his best.

 

WARNING: I'm stealing some of this info from BoxWreck. (What I call them lets you know what I think of them. I defer to you for any corrections.)

Do not expect to change your mind with this (nor should you be swayed with your positions and cachet already well established).

Nobody disputes that Wills should have gotten a shot between Firpo and Tunney (which would have extended Dempsey's reign via knockout before an excellent gate, radio and eventual film proceeds), but Wills needed to produce a far more impressive showing with Firpo and he didn't, only dropping Luis with a sucker right as the referee passed too close between them (which Jack would have actually enjoyed being on the receiving end of). Wills needed to DESTROY Firpo quickly, and again, nobody did that until 1936.

Was Wills TRULY superior to all of Dempsey's other challengers in Harry's two bouts each in 1924 and 1925? Based on the Firpo and Uzcudun footage, I'm simply not wild 'bout Harry, who does not optimize his height and reach on what little film we have. When Dempsey did lose, he lost to the superior contender. One month later, Sharkey (who Dempsey soon took out long before the remaining eight rounds would have caused the Gob to gas down from body shots) owned Wills.

When should Harry have gotten his shot? Wills drew with Dempsey spar mate Bill Tate in January 1922. In September 1920, Wills and McVey was NCed six rounds in, right after Harry had dispatched the glass chinned Fulton in three for his best stoppage of the 1920's. Being halted due to stalling after Fulton wasn't a great way to justify a title shot then. Gibbons went on his eight match title shot tear shortly after the Wills-Tate NC, while Wills competed 13 times.

During the active phase of Dempsey's early 1920's reign, Jack Johnson's conduct was still too raw for a Wills challenge to be socially plausible.

Langford 2X via ONE left hook and Battling Jim Johnson by TKO 3, prove Wills simply didn't have the durability shared by Miske, Brennan, and Firpo. Also, Dempsey held the 3-1/2 year youth advantage over Harry.

Wills over the younger and more durable master boxer Gibbons of 1923? Not sure I buy that.

 

While I wouldn't necessarily call it Dempsey's best win, it certainly was a good win, for many reasons. For Jack's best win, I'll go with Willard.

 

Of course. I was trying to make a distinction between Willard and Jack's five successful defenses.

 

Dempsey had one fight in about thirty one months when he fought Gibbons , a light heavy for the most part but a very tricky guy with a terrific chin .. based on his inactivity and the overall uncertainty going into the fight itself it was a good performance showing Dempsey could go the distance and look solid doing so ..post Willard from 1919 forward Dempsey fought less than nineteen rounds in four years ... he really was an inactive fighter and at the least it gave him some ridiculously needed work that helped him going into Firpo a couple of months later ...

 

Between Firpo and Tunney? Wills was already one of the top contenders when Dempsey won the title in 1919. So much so that immediately after winning the title Dempsey was asked specifically about giving Wills a shot and Dempsey formally drew the color line. In 1920 Wills cemented his place as Dempsey's top contender by knocking out Fred Fulton in a bout billed as a title eliminator. Dempsey had stated that he would fight the winner of this bout. Immediately after Wills had caved in three of Fulton's ribs in stopping him Dempsey signed to fight Billy Miske who was coming out of a retirement enforced by his doctors due to terminal kidney disease (and Dempsey knew this. Miske had won just one of his five previous fights and that was against a total nobody, his only fight in the previous year. The last fight Miske had against anyone with a pulse was a one sided loss to Battling Levinsky at LHW. And yet Wills only deserved a title shot between September of 1923 and September of 1926??? Id love to see your math on this.

LOL. Oh, so its a foregone conclusion that Dempsey not only beats Wills but knocks him out. Lets get real here. If Dempsey really truly believed he would beat Wills then he would ran, not walked, to sign a fight with Wills and get a chunk of the estimated 3million dollar gate (Rickard, Kearns, and Dempsey were all on record quoting this figure as what they anticipated a Wills fight would draw). If the public at large truly believed Dempsey was such a heavy favorite to defeat Wills do you think ANYONE would have raised an issue with the color line? A white champion given the opportunity to show his dominance over a black man? Get real. The only reason Dempsey avoided Wills like the plague was because Wills was viewed as a much greater threat than anyone Dempsey had ever beaten. Period.

Why did Wills NEED to destroy Firpo? Why wasnt Wills defeating Firpo via lopsided decision without barely breaking a sweat enough? Why such a high bar? Did Gibbons NEED to destroy Firpo? Hell, he couldnt even get by a middleweight and got his shot. Who did Bill Brennan or Billy Miske DESTROY to get their title shots? Wills had already destroyed Fulton in an eliminator in 1920. He had destroyed Norfolk in an eliminator in 1922. How many title eliminators does a guy have to win convincingly before he gets a title shot? Why was the bar so much higher for Wills?

First, Uzcudun was in 1927, not 1925. By that point Wills was shot, no longer a challenger, and 38 years old. How good did Dempsey look at 38? Go watch him get manhandled by King Levinsky in a bout he was using to test the waters for a comeback and tell me how impressive he looked.

The same Sharkey who owned Dempsey before Dempsey used his nuts as speedbag. Dont come here trying to convince me Dempsey beat him with bodyshots like Ive never seen that fight.

Are you still trying to convince me that Gibbons, a light heavyweight who had built his credentials up for a shot at Dempsey on a long string of has beens and never weres (by his brothers own admission), deserved a shot at Dempsey before Wills? Keep in mind that within a month Gibbons and Wills both fought eliminators for Dempsey. Gibbons lost a one sided decision to middleweight Harry Greb. Wills knocked out Kid Norfolk in two rounds. The same Kid Norfolk who Gibbons had ducked since 1917 and the same Kid Norfolk who Dempsey wouldnt even spar with. Again, The Fulton fight was billed as an eliminator with Dempsey publicly stating he would fight the winner. I know its an inconvenient fact for a nuthugger who thinks its a foregone conclusion that Dempsey knocks out Wills and that Gibbons earned a shot at Dempsey by losing in such one sided fashion to a middleweight but the fact remains that AT LEAST by 1920 Wills universally considered the greatest threat Dempsey's title.

Sure, thats why in poll after poll Wills was always nominated as Dempsey's logical challenger and why the vast majority of the press considered him so and why his name kept being used to promote elimination bouts. Because Wills, an intelligent church going family who stayed out of trouble was soft spoken and managed his own businesses was exactly like Jack Johnson who was arrested nearly every month during his title reign and was constantly at odds with authorities. Bull****. And when exactly was Dempsey's active phase anyway? The guy spent 9 months active between 1920 and 1921 and during that time he fought a light heavyweight who lost to the best fighters he faced. A dying man, and a guy who he had already knocked out once and almost lost that fight.

Really? When did Brennan, Miske, and Firpo fight Langford and Jim Johnson to prove how they would have held up against them? Oh they didnt. So your opinion is that because Wills lost to those guys YEARS earlier, that Dempsey would have beaten him. You do realize that Wills broke his arm in the Johnson fight, he wasnt knocked out. Regardless, just because sitting in your moms basement in 2023 you think Dempsey would have knocked Wills out 100 years ago neither makes it true nor excuses the fact that Wills never got an opportunity to prove you right or wrong. If your hero had the balls you imagine he did we would know but instead he was a chicken **** who opted to duck his most feared challenger so he could ride the gravy train by beating light heavyweights and nobodies.

Actually it was a six year advantage. Wills was born in 1889. But hey, what difference does it make. In your mind Dempsey already beats Wills regardless of the age or the facts.

Considering Gibbons wouldnt even fight Kid Norfolk until he was past his prime and blind in one eye I doubt he ever steps into the ring with the guy who knocked him out like a baby in two rounds.

 

And there's the Steve Compton we all know and love...

 

I 'd liked to have seen Gibbons against some of the great light heavys from the 50's through the 70's and early 80's. Some great matches there to be made