JohnThomas, I always figured Sonny was just fighting post-Ali out of habit and not training very seriously. If that's true, then a casually interested and invested Liston was still beating guys like Clark, Rischer, the two Amos's and Zach who were all at least probably top 30 heavies off the top of his head. No telling how much room there was between what he showed in those fights and what he could've shown if he had an axe to grind.
I think Liston was too far past it in 69' to beat Frazier but prime Liston smashes Frazier. It's a bad style matchup for Joe.
I think a prime Liston destroys Joe, he simply can't come to Sonny and trade. I also believe Sonny was much older than listed in 1969 and he wouldn't be able to handle a young Frazier and would get stopped. That being said, if I was Fraziers management I'd have avoided Sonny, wayyy to much risk there at that point style wise specially.
Watch Sonny vs Scrap Iron Johnson, squint your eyes and tilt your head a bit and imagine it’s Joe Frazier…but on Valium. Sonny’s breathing also appeared to be a bit laboured when they mercifully stopped that fight. I would rate Johnson’s ability to take a shot higher than Frazier’s - Johnson was a bit inhuman in that regard - but I can’t see the much more evasive 69 Frazier being as hittable, particularly against the slowed and stamina challenged version of Old Liston. And there’s Frazier’s own searing offence to be getting on with. No picnic.
Pre Ali I would say that Liston would dispose of smokin Joe, but this is Liston on his last legs vs. an absolutely in his prime Frazier. I'd give the edge to Frazier as I think his engine would trouble that version of Sonny and his hook would win the left hand duel (against Liston's left)
I don't know what he thought in 1969 but as late as 1968, Archie Moore still thought Sonny would KO Joe.
If Sonny Liston petered out against Leotis Matin in Dec 1969, imagine what a finely tuned Joe Frazier does to a shopworn Sonny Liston in 1969.