A Lightheavy That Could Defeat Foreman or Liston??

Do you realise there's a purple voodoo strain of Mary Jane? Gosh, I'm a poet and i don't even know it. I just seem to rhyme every time.

 

LOL. You are glamouring very basic manoeuvres here Johnny "Simply sublime" Show me where George actually stopped Ali doing what he wanted to do in that first round or maybe benefitted? I seem him sublimely walked into punches and Ali doing what James Toney did countless times, remember part of boxing is making the guy think he's doing what he's meant to. Resident trainer @Pat M could you tell me where George Foreman stopped Ali doing what he wanted or benefited from being tricked into walking into right hands?

 

I guess I'd go with Archie Moore. Most likely to be able to survive and crafty enough to be able to drag the fight into the late rounds when Foreman is gassed. If Moore is still standing in the championship rounds, he's going to win.

 

Absolutely true ... he immediately saw how strong Foreman was and how well trained to cut off the ring and knew he'd have to change strategies ... for that night, if not the long term damage, Ali was long skilled at fighting w his back to the ropes and used it ..

 

There is a reality to this putting aside all the drama ... Foreman was an exceptionally strong guy, big two handed power but styles make fights, period ... Frazier and Norton were made for him and it showed in a spectacular manner .. Ali with his chin, size and overall game was able to assemble enough of his combined remaining skills to checkmate expose Foreman and expose his inexperience, mental weakness and limitations .. Foreman was a truly remarkable physical specimen and had in my opinion the potential to be exceptional if he continued to improve but once he blew out Frazier it was all about his huge strength and power .. he seemed to be getting it together in his post Ali comeback but fell apart in Puerto Rico against Young .. how they agreed to fight Young, a nightmare stylistic match they knew about prior to the fight, in a humid climate was a colossal example of poor judgement ...

 

No doubt he was strong at cutting off the ring ... it was the reason Ali fought him off the ropes as his plan B but he was a rank amateur when it came to how to pace himself and fight him on the ropes ..

 

So first it's "Foreman never displayed the ability to cut off the ring" and now it's "but it was against Norton lolz". Forgive me for thinking you have an agenda here.

Kreiger: Kreiger had 25 losses on his record, was 9 years older and 5 inches shorter than Conn and still won their first bout. Was also an inept infighter. If I were you, I would've avoided this guy like the plague.
Zivic: 65 losses.
Corbett III: Moved up to fight Conn and still won one of their bouts.
Apostoli: Also moved up to fight Conn.
Yarosz: Also a middleweight.

And you say Liston had size advantages in fights!

If Conn had such an excellent ring IQ, better than Liston and ****ing Muhammad Ali why did he abandon his gameplan in the 13th and try to KO Louis? "My plan right now is working like a charm and I'm 2 rounds away from winning the title. Let's throw that all away and try to KO Joe ****ing Louis."

"The smartest guy he fought beat him pretty easily the first time and ridiculously easy the second time."

Yeah, the smartest guy he fought just happened to be the GOAT. Liston was also in his mid-30s at the youngest, and was very possibly in his 40s according to the most recent data we have in terms of records. He also fought six minutes in three years, and had an injured shoulder going into the first bout.

It was not a "pretty easy" win at all. Cards were dead even. 58-56 Ali, 58-56 Liston, and a draw across the board. Ali also listed it as the toughest bout in his career up to '74 and called Liston a scientific fighter.

Liston showed an excellent ability to adapt on the fly against Machen, Williams, among others.

Conn had his hands full with frequently defeated middleweights, but yeah he's beating two ATG heavyweights with no problems. Thanks for the laugh.

 

Agreed JT,yet some guys refuse to believe the evidence before their own eyes !

 

Absolutely mate.I can't believe some folks actually believe rope-a-dope was Ali's first choice.

 

Cheers CT.

 

Hmmm........do I detect paranoia here ?

 

Ali had Bingham write in The Greatest that he knew after the first round Foreman was trained to cut the ring off too well and that he'd never be able to keep up the pace ... Ali knew it and chose to use the ropes as an adjustment ... why do you think his corner was in shock, to the point some thought he was tanking the fight ? They were freaking out screaming to get off the ropes and then as Foreman, in his complete inexperience and inability to shift gears played into this hands all saw it play out ... it seemed as you listen to the broadcast live the only one not seeing this unfold was Foreman ... I have never seen coverage of his corner between rounds telling him to pace himself .. wonder what they were doing ? Between Archie Moore and Sadlere they sure had enough experience ..

 

I just watched the first 4 rounds and I don't think Foreman necessarily stopped Ali from doing anything, but GF was much worse fighting on the inside than he was outside so Ali probably decided to keep it inside as much as possible. In the center of the ring GF was better, against the ropes, he looked like he had never fought on the inside. He stood straight, a lot of the time he got square, and he threw wide punches to Ali's sides. When GF was square, Ali was able to move him where he wanted him. In the center of the ring, GF stalked, he jabbed and threw the right hand and had better balance. At that range it would have been a tougher fight for Ali.

If GF had bent his knees some when Ali was against the ropes, kept his left shoulder toward Ali, his right foot behind, and thrown straight, short punches, Ali would probably have fought in the center of the ring. As it was when GF fought with his feet squared, Ali was able to push and pull him at will. GF's lack of balance took away his power on the inside along with his lack of inside punching technique. I think Ali did what he wanted to do, he saw his opponent was better in the middle of the ring and not as good against the ropes, Ali took the fight to where he wanted it to go.

 

Absolutely HG, although Foreman was far from being just '' big and dumb'' he would have had
a much better first career had he been trained by a great trainer like Eddie Futch.
As you say the sheer panic of Angelo Dundee due to Ali's rope-a-dope is further telling
evidence this was a brilliant,entirely unexpected improvisation by Ali.
Sadler and Moore did indeed serve Foreman poorly in Zaire.I believe Dundee said
had he been in Foreman's corner he would have advised Big George to claim the
centre of the ring,beckon Ali onto him and start using his own superb jab