Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

That's more like Ali getting in shape for Frazier III. He was done after that, but even though he moved mountains to get into condition, he'd passed his best.

 

186 was small for Rocky's day, sure. Not as small as it would have been in 1975, though.

I think there's something to @NoNeck's occasional point that the birth cohort(s?) that produced Ali, Frazier, Foreman, etc. were a physically larger group than the ones who came before, and consequently had more big, athletic men. Liston misses that cutoff, along with Rocky and Patterson. Ali is on the early edge of it; Foreman, Holmes, etc. are well inside. The Boomer and Boomer adjacent folks may just have been bigger people.

EDIT: The original issue I chimed in on is whether there's some magic number, whether it's 190, 200, etc., that makes a fighter good enough to tangle with heavies. I am skeptical there's anything like that, since the minimum weight still keeps climbing. At best, there is a weight range within certain periods. This range keeps getting bigger. Rocky is big enough for Liston's era. Liston is big enough for Holmes's. Holmes is big enough for the 90s. The 90s fighters are big enough for today. Rocky is *not* big enough for today. It's a continuum, without a magic cutoff.

 

We're going in circles .. my point remains the same.

 

I think the great scholar Eddie Murphy was on to something in regards to the Marciano fanatics...

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Personally, I favor Liston to win, but I don't think it would be the one sided drubbing many think it would. To be fair, I would never have thought that Frazier would have lost like he did to Foreman. Basically, I would have to see it to believe it. And, I just think it's telling that none of the boxing writers back then picked Liston to just wipe out Marciano like some on here think. And Marciano and Liston were contemporaries. Their eras overlapped.

 

It's not just size. Marciano was limited by his lack of adaptability, and boxing skills. Liston didn't have these limitations. He had an excellent ring IQ, very underrated multi-faceted defense, an ATG jab and an 84 inch reach that would translate very well today imo. I don't think Rocky enjoys the same success in any era after. He definitely benefitted off the relative lack of talent in the division (when three past it old men are the best an era has to offer it speaks volumes, much as people here don't want to admit it).

In the 60s he has to deal with Liston, and Ali.

70s: Ali, Foreman, Frazier.

80s: Holmes (who I actually think Rocky does better than many expect) and Tyson

90s: Bowe (Marciano actually has a Puncher's chance here with Bowe's relative lack of defense, and tendency to look the right), Tyson (again), Holyfield, Douglas? (Doubtful Marciano faces a motivated Douglas), Lewis, etc. This era on is when his success really starts to fall off imho.

 

I do agree that the boomer generation was slightly larger on average compared to the silent generation and others before them. Jefferies and Johnson were considered "giants" and if I recall correctly the average height for American men was around 5'9.

I didn't say there was a cutoff, I'm saying that for whatever reason 210+ is give or a take a good range for being able to hang with heavies no matter what era. That was consistent for over 50 years and while the cutoff might be higher today than say, the 90's, you stopp have guys like Wilder and Usyk winning belts so there might be something special about that weight range when it comes to athleticism/strength etc.

This is anecdotal, but I touched on this earlier: that is, around that range it is less likely to get overwhelmed by a larger opponent (unless there's a vast difference in skill/experience) as opposed to someone weighing 190, 180, etc. Even as far back as Joe Louis, light heavies like Billy Conn, Moore, Charles, etc would have to fight the perfect fight to hang with the larger men and it was almost always an uphill battle.

 

The old writers who watched Rocky live and held him in high regard were already pretty old by the time Liston came around. There's also the fact Liston was universally despised by America and it certainly didn't help that he seemingly lost twice to loud mouth Ali when he was favored to win (the 2nd fight being especially egregious). I mean, how many people do you think would pick Tyson to beat the Klitschkos if he suffered a 1st round KO while champion to a fighter not known for their KO power???

 

Liston turned pro while Marciano was still fighting. When he hit his prime in 58, Marciano was still a public figure who had been retired for 3 years and was contemplating a comeback. I don't think all the boxing writers from 1955 were all old and retired by 1958-1960.

 

I didn't say that either.

Premier writers like Nah Fleischer had been around for quite some time and has a solid opinion on their top 10. I never said every single writer was getting old.

Liston, once he rose to prominence, was held in the same high regard as prime Tyson until his devastating losses to Ali. That's part of the reason.

 

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I don't know what to make of the 2nd Ali/Liston fight, but if the KO was real and Liston didn't fall down on purpose, it would, at the very least indicate that Rocky has enough power to hurt Liston. Ali, IMO, was a better fighter than Marciano overall, but when it comes to sheer punching power, Marciano>>>>Ali.

 

I said I was going to back out but I can’t let this go … is it not a legitimate question to ask why Rocky Marciano is so beloved by his acolytes?

I truly, legitimately, sincerely do not understand why some folks are that way about him to the point where, as I noted with a dash of hyperbole, they think he would find a way in a head to head matchup with Godzilla.

 

It’s not that anyone thinks he beats Godzilla. It’s that it is never another fighter who was never knocked out like say Marvin Hagler who is continually picked to be knocked out by a lesser champion. This seems to be only Marciano that gets picked for this.

Where are the Qawi knocks out Hagler threads?

 

Or better yet Chok, Cleveland Big Cat Williams knocks out Joe Frazier, Ouch !