How Realistic are these "facts" about Liston?

there have been studies that show people estimate African Americans older than they are when guessing age

 

I think the reach is bogus. When you watch the Williams fight they comment over and over about how Liston needs to get closer because Williams has too much reach on him. Williams is listed as 80' reach which is a lot less than 84'. I think 80' or 79' are both more likely than 84' for Liston

 

Look honestly just about everything is slightly or offensively exaggerated with Sonny. SL’s arms weren’t that long- long but not what it says on the tin. His fists weren’t THAT big, look at the moulds of his fist on display if you don’t believe me.

His age has been picked clean and age he’s not 105. Being old, the mob, NOI or his shoulder hadn’t anything to do with his L’s to Ali, he got beat bad and quit- it’s a fact.

I’ve also never seen film of this supposed hybrid of Foreman and Joe Louis, Liston is one of the slowest most predictable fighters I’ve seen. Does anyone remember Machens “burning eyes” post fight?

He wasn’t killed by the mob, he died of a heroine overdose. Stop romanticising a shady criminal who sketchily impersonated a cop in the wee hours of the morning to pull a woman over for? - he’s not a misunderstood poet he’s a crumby guy who was good at fighting.

 

Well on the reach issue, Sam Langford at height of 5'6'ish had a reach reportedly longer than Dempsey, Sharkey, Tyson etc.

I think we can say Liston did have a long reach for his height, he was broad in build and did have large hands, which all add to a fighters measured wingspan.

With regard to Listons true age, no documented birth certificate means we will never know.

 

I’d probably only allow Liston a YOB as far back as 1928.

His arms were long with exceptionally long hands attached - based on the eye test and range for most common reach listings provided for Sonny - I’d say a reach of 82.5” to 84”.

It appears his fist size was def. upgraded from 14” to 14.5” to 15” to 15.5” by the time of the Patterson fight.

Ali himself had his reach bumped up from a real 78” to 79” to 82” by the time he was set to fight Liston - likely to “diminish” Liston’s apparent reach advantage.

The commentator for Liston vs Williams 1, Jack Drees?, who repeatedly said that Williams’ reach was longer never actually gave a stat for either Sonny or Williams.

Can’t say if he was sourcing his claim from unquoted numerical stats he saw for himself or if he simply assumed same per the eye test and/or based on the fact that Williams was somewhat taller than Sonny.

There was another fight, perhaps vs Chuvalo, for which Williams’ reach was listed as 85” - obviously it doesn’t mean that was correct but that listing was shown.

The Big Cat had large mitts also - generally listed as 14” - though there are pics available with Liston that seem to indicate Sonny’s fists to be that bit bigger than Cleve’s.

 

Can you post one of the pictures of Liston's reach being measured? I've never seen or heard of an athletic commission measuring a fighter and I've been to weigh ins in a number of states, including states with a strong commission like N.Y. and Pa. The only fighter I've seen having his reach measured is Ali on Wide World of Sports by Angelo Dundee and Bundini Brown, it was 78". I've never seen a picture of Liston having his reach measured and I couldn't find one, but if you have one it should settle this question.

Liston's arms do look long for his height, but as BCS8 mentioned in the Cleveland Williams fight he definitely had less reach than Williams.

 

79". Go to 1:18 on the below video, despite the graphic on the screen, you can here Dundee say "78-inches....79".

This content is protected

 

I've never seen a picture of his reach being measured. I'd accept that he had a similar reach to Williams despite what the commentators are saying. However if he had a huge 4 inch reach advantage it would have been obvious from the start and certainly the ringside comments would have remarked on the fact that Williams' supposed superior reach was not in fact so.

 

Bloody hell ! Your obsessive campaign to discredit the great Sonny Liston has become so tedious.Ok,ok
now let's get through your mess of misinformation :

You say Sonny's fists weren't that big ? So all those photos of Liston comparing his fists with those
of other men in which Liston's hands are obviously MUCH larger have been edited
with a hidden agenda ?

There is a genuine issue concerning Liston's age.There is ample evidence that Liston was significantly
older than 32 years old when he first fought Muhammad Ali.

There were several factors that contributed to Liston's defeats by Muhammad Ali.As I have pointed out
in other threads there is empirical,indisputable evidence that Sonny was suffering from bursitis in his shoulders
for a year before the first Ali fight.Liston needed a constant treatment of cortisone injections and ice-packs
just to get through training for the fight.As for the fight itself a team of 8 doctors confirmed that Sonny had
indeed suffered an injury that did make it impossible for him to continue to fight.If you genuinely believe
that there was no exterior factors such as the mafia or the NOI influencing the outcome of the second fight
that's entirely up to you.By the way would you be interested in buying London Bridge from me ? It could
be yours for a reasonable sum of cash.

Sonny was no speed merchant but he wasn't exceptionally slow.As for Machen's eye-burning accusations
it's amazing that Machen only brought this up a whopping 4 years after his fight with Liston.I suggest you
actually watch Liston's fight with Machen.There is not one shred of evidence that Machen's eyes had been
tampered with.

 

I've deleted my post because I am wrong. I could have sworn there was a picture of his arm being measured but I could not find it. Also, I was under the impression that the athletic commissions in those days did do full measurements in tale of the tapes. Nowadays they do not and and the tale of the tapes today are network or promoter driven.

There are plenty of photos of him making a fist and with his arm extended that make me believe 84 inch reach and 15 and half fist is legit but I cannot prove it without a shadow of a doubt. I'm simply trusting my eyes and numerous tale of the tapes.

 

I’ve seen a couple of clips of his fights where he jabs his opponent from a distance that seems unreal. And lands a right. Just clips. I too have seen his reach listed as 80.5 against Leotis. But it does look huge. It doesn’t look in the 70’s. It looks like a 80 plus reach. In the past a lot of fighters height and reach are listed differently. The only consistent one is Thomas Hearns’. 6-1 height and 78 reach. Against Williams it’s deceiving as Williams is taller. Although his height has at times changed from 6-2 to 6-3. We’ll never know for sure but his reach and fists were huge. As for his age Chuck Wepner said he looked a lot older than his listed 38 at the time. Poor old Sonny. No definite date of birth. Or death. But the guys arms and hands were HUGE. I believe it. It certainly wasn’t far off.

 

On the other side of the coin you have the brigade of people worshipping a criminal who pulled women over whilst impersonating a police officer. my God, awful me.

You’ve spent a whole post posting your own maybes with no real evidence. About his fists, I never denied his fists were large they are just as I said one of those things that are “slightly exaggerated” not offensively.

I never said anything about an exact age, I said he wasn’t 105. He wasn’t dust for blood against Ali though, he just got beat- BAD twice Whilst in the first fight he was most likely cheating, he was a mob fighter I think it’s a safe assumption.

The doctor thing, link me to what you’re talking about. I’ve heard this claim but I’ll need to have a look. Maybe I can pat your hero on the back a little then. About the injections and ice packs, it sounds like standard practice in boxing they work with there hands it’s part of the game and they get worn down to the nubs by the end of it, Monzon fought Griffith after being shot in the shoulder and allegedly unable to feel his right hand.

Show me him being anything but slow, I can show you plenty of him being being a slug in the ring. He is again a slow overrated boxer who could’ve been replaced in history by MANY decent HWs.

 

Not that I'm agreeing with most of your Liston comments but his 'speed' was called-out in a Ring article late 63ish, stating his slowness can be exploited and that's where 'Clay and co' have a chance.