Why people rate Willie Pep above Joe Gans ?

techks · Aug 22, 2023

Welcome back Vic! Yeah I just got back after 10 yrs ago too a couple of months ago so know how you feel. Life happens I guess lol.

Melankomas · Aug 22, 2023

Greg Price99 said: ↑

Hi Vic,

Welcome back. I only started posting last year, so we won't have engaged before, but any fan of Jofre is alright with me.

I have Pep #11 & Gans #13 p4p all time, so they're really close for me & I have no problem with anyone ranking Gans higher. I won't argue for Pep being higher, but I will explain my reasoning as to why I have them so close.

Firstly, differences in rankings amongst knowledgeable boxing fans are more typically down to different criteria, rather than different interpretations of the respective fighters careers. Some people's rankings are entirely, or at least heavily, aligned with the depth of fighter's win resume. Win resume is important to me, but so is how they won, i.e. how dominant they were, as well as crucially, who they lost to in their prime & how. i.e. I value dominance highly, so my ranking criteria is more than just comparing the names on the respective fighter's win resume (I'm not suggesting that's your criteria, btw).

At a narrow shouldered, short armed 5ft 4ins, the lean Pep was a small FW, who began his career 134-1-1. His only loss was to the much bigger borderline ATG LW Sammy Angott in a close fight (5-4-1 x 2 & 6-4 were the judges cards). During this run he beat arguably top 30 all time FW Sal Bartolo x3, top 50 all time FW Chalky Wright x 4 and my #3 all time BW Manuel Ortiz. In fights contested in & around FW, he went 102-0 before bumping into Saddler.

I suspect Pep's standing to a degree depends on your view of the impact of the plane crash he was involved in, that sadly took the lives of 3 other occupants of the plane. I don't know for certain to exactly what extent it effected the remainder of his career, but comparing his career pre & post crash, my guess is that it had a material impact. Yet, he still managed a win over the bigger (their respective size is irrelevant when ranking them at FW, but very much relevant from the p4p ranking perspective we're discussing here) Saddler, who I rank #2 at FW all time & who was a stylistic nightmare for Pep, post that crash. I don't ignore Pep's 3 x losses to Saddler, but perhaps don't factor them in to my rankings in quite the same way I would do had they occurred pre-plane crash. For whatever it's worth I consider Pep only lost 3 x FW fights in his prime years, all against Saddler, though my guess is that he wasn't absolutely peak for any.

In addition to Saddler, Bartolo x 3, Wright x 4 & Ortiz, Pep has fine wins over Ray Famechon, Charlie Riley, Eddie Compo, Humerto Sierra x 2, Jock Leslie, Jackie Graves, Phil Terranova, Charlie Lewis & Harold Dade. Allied with his consistent & utter dominance in that 134-1-1 run (102-0 at FW), those wins that occurred during that run hint at a fighter as far removed from his peers as just about any boxer in history, during his prime run.

At a relatively broad shouldered & long armed 5ft 6.5ins, Gans was a decent sized LW for the time. He has the better world title record at LW than Pep does at FW (15-2 vs 10-3) & the greater win resume. His best wins read like a whose who of that great LW era - Frank Erne (1-1), George McFadden (4-1-2), Young Griffo (2-0-2), Kid McPartland (2-0-3), Wilmington Jack Daly (2-0-1, inc 1 DQ win), Dal Hawkins (2-1), Battling Nelson (1-2) & Spike Sullivan.

That's a win resume resplendent with quality & depth, but note the draws & losses, too. I consider that Gans lost 6 x LW fights in or around his prime years - Frank Erne due to a cut (avenged), Dal Hawkins aged 21 (avenged x 2), Bobby Dobbs, George McFadden (avenged x 4), the much smaller Terry McGovern (possible dive, but regardless of whether legitimate or a dive, it should still count against his legacy) & Jack Blackburn in a 6-round Newspaper decision (twice avenged up at 140lbs). Gan had a truly brilliant 55-1-4 run in fights contested at LW between the McGovern fight & losing to Nelson when almost 34 years old & past prime.

In summary, Gans has the greater win resume (though Pep's can get underrated), whilst Pep was the more consistently dominant during their respective prime years. I've no problem with anyone ranking Gans the higher & if I analysed my notes on their respective career's on another day, I could easily have Gans higher myself. Applying my criteria, they're close either way, imo.
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Another great and informative post Greg

Greg Price99 · Aug 22, 2023

Melankomas said: ↑

Another great and informative post Greg
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Thanks Mel, much appreciated.

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Why people rate Willie Pep above Joe Gans ?

techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

Melankomas Corbett beats your favourite fighter

Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member