Chris Byrd - Could He Have Beaten Wilder?

"of course he's gonna give Wilder his props."

Not really. It's clear from various quotes that Byrd wanted Ortiz to beat Wilder, on the basis that the foreigner Ortiz was an aged southpaw technician with fewer athletic gifts than Wilder, much like himself. Byrd sounded gleeful that Wilder had a very tough fight with Ortiz. So it's likely that when he said that he'd rather fight Mike Tyson than Wilder based on the style/attribute matchup, he was just telling the truth from his experience and what he knows about boxing.

“That’s why he gave Deontay Wilder so many problems. He was like, ‘I’m six-four, I’m big, and I’m not worried about this guy because he doesn’t know how to fight.’

It’s all about experience, technique and seasoning in this generation. If you’ve got that, you can make up a hell of a lot of ground on guys who only have size, athleticism and power.

Ortiz is a damn 45-year-old man and still has what it takes to give these two top guys hell. That says a lot. Ortiz is an old man, but he knows boxing. He can break it down. He’s got an old face, a chubby body, and he moves slowly. But he knows things these two, Joshua and Wilder, will never know."

 

Those guys still have time though to score more big wins whereas Joshua seems to be basically finished. Zhang could beat Joyce in a rematch and then beat Wilder for example. Hrgovic could beat Usyk. The fact your not insisting AJ is better than them H2H is pretty telling.

 

Well put. And Wilder is the type to “run red lights” as Teddy Atlas used to say. He’s not gonna get all ponderous like a David Tua when Byrd shells up or gives him lateral movement.

 

Everything you say is true.

But Wilder still KO's Byrd.

 

"Zhang could beat Joyce in a rematch and then beat Wilder for example. Hrgovic could beat Usyk."

Doubt x2. If it happens (big if) then sure, Joshua is arguably not top 5 in this era.

"The fact your not insisting AJ is better than them H2H is pretty telling."

It's you're in this instance. I think Ortiz would have beaten Joshua in late 2017, perhaps he was better H2H. But he's not going to finish ahead of Joshua even if Wilder sparks Joshua early because Joshua has a better collection of wins and was a 2x titlist with a long reign. Joshua was privileged compared to Ortiz in getting those opportunities and making use of them (look at Audley and Yoka in comparison) but that's the way the cookie crumbled.

 

One thing I don't quite understand is this belief that Wilders power translates against the divisions elite when the only top 10 heavyweight he has stopped is Luis Ortiz. He did drop Fury multiple times but Fury has dropped multiple times by guys not considered big punchers and it seems like a lot of his defense is based on using his height to avoid punches which is probably a lot less effective against a tall rangy guy like Wilder who also happens to be pretty athletic. Even if guys like Whyte and Chisora hit like Wilder which they probably don't they might have a much harder time landing bombs effectively due to lacking Wilders physical dimensions.

I just don't see the evidence for Wilder being a bigger puncher than guys like Makhmudov, Bakole, Dubois, etc. Do people favor them to kayo Byrd?

 

Byrd is trying his best

 

Chris Byrd would win every round until he got hit with a nuclear right and that would be the end of it.

 

"Boxrec have some interesting takes, just look at their ranking system."

It's nothing to do with the ranking system, it's a poll of their membership. They have it 96-95 Fury. A plurality on Eyeonthering also have Fury winning and that's without McDermott being deducted points for turning his back twice, at one instance turning his back and running away.

"McDermott overperformed relative to expectations as a 7/2 underdog, was David to Fury's Goliath, was coming forward more, was fighting in his hometown, had lost two close/controversial decisions to Danny Williams in his previous two fights (which were for the British title), braggadocios trash talking Irish Gypsy Fury was broadly disliked at the time, most of the hype and tribalistic support in Britain was either behind Ring cruiser champion and future Wlad title challenger Haye or 2008 SHW Olympic bronze medallist Price, the commentary was poor and the scoring too wide, hence the robbery narrative. Johnny Nelson stated just before the rematch that McDermott said he'd lost the first fight in the last two rounds."

"it was a guy coming off major addiciton problems who was not at his best."

This has been done to death. I don't know how close Fury was to his best (it's not quantifiable), what I do know is that he'd been back in training for a year and felt ready to beat Wilder. It's also clear that Fury was not physically shot as many believed he might have been as he went on to have some very strong performances (Wilder 2 and Whyte in particular, the latter being 3.5 years later).

"he still has no marquee wins"

Ortiz was one of the ten best heavyweights of the 2010's.

"has fought pretty poor competition his whole career"

For much of it yes but Fury x3 + 30-0 Ortiz as his top 4 opponents is extremely strong. And he's not retired, he could potentially add Joshua to his list in his next fight. And if Wilder beats Joshua, he'll have two mutual opponents with Wlad (arguably Wlad's best two), with a 1-2-1 record against them as opposed to Wlad's 0-2.

"I personally rate this performance far higher than Wilder's vs Fury, and I rate Vitali more as a fighter"

If Wilder outperforms Wlad or Vitali against a mutual opponent (Fury or Arreola) then narratives are constructed to deny Wilder credit. Likewise, if Lewis is one-shotted twice by wide underdog fringe contenders then it's assumed that they were very strong opponents.

Vitali was better than Wilder in some key respects (chin, engine, mass) and worse in others (power, heart, injury proneness). I'd argue that Wilder has fought stronger competition though and that he would have had a good chance of going through Vitali's opponents undefeated, far better than the other way around.

 

"For one, most of the observers on the night of the McDermott fight had him the clear winner."

They were fighting in John's birthplace and hometown of Essex, so that could well be true. But both Eyeonthering and Boxrec have it for Fury in retrospect, as did the referee at the time. And even the Scottish commentator Watt said "whichever way this goes" in the final round, implying that the result was in the balance. He also said "McDermott could get points deducted for that" after he turned around for a second time and ran away.

Mentioning the first McDermott fight is inherently unserious in discussions about the Fury who fought Wlad and Wilder.

"you simply cannot be at your physical best after what Fury had been through"

Dogmatic statement. Perhaps with a great constitution and 12 months of training and clean living, you can. It's impossible to quantify anyway but Fury did much better against a more experienced version of Wilder than 30-0 Ortiz did (a top 10 HW of the 2010's). Fury's tactics were completely different in fights 2 and 3. He certainly did much better in fight 2 but at least part of that was because Wilder was completely unprepared physically, mentally and tactically for Fury's radical change of style overnight.

"Ortiz has to be one of the most overrated heavyweights of the modern era."

Your analysis of Ortiz's career is unobjective and unserious. If your first statement was correct then team Povetkin, team Joyce and a slew of others wouldn't have ducked Ortiz, in some cases openly:

https://www.rbth.com/sport/2014/04/...itschko_rematch_continue_to_recede_35827.html

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"Did he beat Fury?"

No, his best result was a draw where he scored two KD's and did the majority of the damage. Which is far more than you can say for ATG Wlad and the rest as it stands.

"he's beaten only one legit top 10 contender"

As it stands Wilder has three wins over top 6 Ring ranked opponents, along with an epic trilogy with Fury.

"Also AJ is not in the top two opponents of Wlad"

He arguably is. For a start he beat Wlad, which is more than you can say for most of the others and he took far less damage in the process than Puritty or Brewster. Secondly he beat Povetkin, who most probably believe is top 3 on Wlad's list. The Povetkin whose very best wins include Takam and Whyte in wars and who was vastly outperformed against Wlad by 2005 Peter, losing 12-0 (Wlad was also grappling Peter but Peter responded by effectively rabbit punching Wlad, which is one tactic Povetkin would have employed if he'd been desperate to win).

Also, why does Wlad get prime-related excuses made for him but an even older Ortiz with two KO defeats to Wilder and about 400 career fights not?

"Wilder would get battered from pillar to post by Lennox Lewis"

Perhaps. Or maybe the taller, faster, more powerful, very disciplined and very experienced Wilder would have one-shotted him with his GOAT right hand, just like the shorter, slower and less powerful fringe contenders 24-5 crackhead McCall and 8 years boxing experience Rahman did.

"Vitali would have walked through all of Wilder's opponents with ease apart from the Fury fight."

He didn't walk through featherfisted blown-up LHW southpaw Byrd with ease so there's a fair chance that Ortiz could cut him or make him quit on an injury. In any case, I maintain that Wilder would have a better chance of beating Lewis and the rest than Vitali would of beating Fury and the rest.

"As for Arreola, why mention him?"

Because Wilder outperformed Vitali: he put Arreola down, stopped him more conclusively (quit vs corner towel), with fewer shots, earlier and took fewer shots in return. Arreola wasn't washed at all: 5 years later he was giving AJ-conqueror Ruiz a hard 12 rounder and setting a HW punch output record the fight before that. But you prove my point: Vitali did worse against Arreola than Wilder, therefore Arreola must have been worse when he fought Wilder. It couldn't possibly be that Vitali was slower and less powerful than Wilder and that's why Wilder did a better job.

"However, he simply does not have the ability to compete with the best of the best from the past eras."

This has always been said about the current crop (Holmes and Lewis weren't highly regarded in their day) and it's likely always been wrong if all other sports are anything to go by. Wilder's mix of attributes make him dangerous for anyone.

 

"banging lines and getting drunk take a toll on your body. Fury was clearly in better shape for the Klitschko fight and second and third Wilder fights."

Sure, but would 12 months of (presumed) clean living and consistent training get a 29/30 year old man with an unusually strong constitution back to his best? I don't think it's impossible and Fury clearly felt ready. I imagine he'd had a fair bit more cocaine and alcohol by the time of the 2nd fight and a hell of a lot more by the 3rd, where Fury was visibly flabby after what was allegedly a very wonky camp and a pullout prior to that.

I don't regard: "Fury won fights 2 and 3, therefore he was in much better shape" as sound logic. Perhaps Wilder was much better prepared for fight 1 than fight 2 (seems very obvious to me). Perhaps he was more suited to the style of fighting Fury utilised in fight 1 in terms of his attributes. Perhaps he was a bit shopworn in the 3rd etc.

"Oh please, the Ortiz ducking narratives need to stop."

There is no "narrative" in those links: there is Povetkin's promoter and Joyce's ex-trainer saying "we don't want the Ortiz fight". I could send many more examples, it's not even the tip of the iceberg. It's dishonest to talk about a narrative when you have them openly admitting that they're avoiding him.

"If you think a guy who laboured to wins over Kauffman and Allen would beat Vitali, you are dreaming."

Ortiz won every round and stopped both. I rate Ortiz higher than the blown-up LHW southpaw featherfist who beat Vitali, though I never said that Ortiz "would" beat Vitali.

"Name Wilder’s wins then"

I'd say that Ortiz and Stiverne are at least on par with Sanders (Nate Tubbs and Rahman victim) and Chisora (13 losses on paper). And Wilder isn't retired yet. His comparative performances have also usually been strong, regardless of the usual litany of excuses.

"Wilder has done nothing to suggest he would Lewis"

He's done a hell of a lot more than those shorter, slower, less powerful, crackhead/green fringe contenders did when they sent him to mars with single right hands.

How many 6'5+, athletic, one-punch KO artists did Lewis fight? Let alone with good amateur pedigree, a lot of championship experience and a willingness to die in the ring rather than quit. Wilder would be the toughest matchup of Lewis's career.

"I think a prime Haye could have beaten Joshua, I would also fancy the Peter Wlad fought the first time round and I think Corrie Sanders would have smoked him."

None of those fighters are more accomplished than Joshua. Haye got stopped by C. Thompson and schooled by Wlad, was more fragile with less heart than Joshua and had a dodgy engine in his own right, best win a toss up between Chisora and the Valuev MD. Sanders got KO'd by Tubbs and Rahman, dangerous southpaw but a one-hit wonder like Ruiz or Douglas. Peter gave Wlad a war but Wlad was reeling from recent KO defeats to Sanders and Brewster, as well as a KD and split TD against Williamson and still managed to win. Peter went on to have serious trouble with Toney and a life and death with McCline before he lost more fights to Vitali, Chambers etc.

They would all lose twice to Usyk and pick up at least one loss against someone else on Joshua's record, very possibly more than one.

"Vitali not dropping a younger less war torn Arreola doesn’t mean anything."

Vitali also didn't drop (or stop): Byrd (lost), Hoffmann, Lewis (lost), Kevin, Briggs, Chisora

He seriously lacked power compared to Wilder and was slower, lost one fight due to an injury and quitting (Wilder's shown zero quit) and lost another due to cuts and A-side politics (again not a problem for Wilder). It stands to reason that Wilder would match up better against many top opponents.

Wilder and Vitali only have one mutual opponent, as do Wilder and Wlad (as it stands). Mutual opponents aren't everything (especially just one) but a consistent pattern is informative:

Wilder did better against

Helenius than Chisora, Whyte and Joshua post-Wilder

Breazeale than Joshua and Wallin post-Wilder

Fury than Chisora, Wlad and Whyte post-Wilder

Stiverne than Joyce post-Wilder 2

Arreola than Vitali and Stiverne

Duhaupas and Washington than Miller post-Wilder

Scott than Chisora and Ortiz post-Wilder

Firtha than Povetkin and Fury

Liakhovich, Szpilka and Ortiz than Jennings

Liakhovich, Duhaupas post-Wilder and Washington post-Wilder than Helenius

Manswell than Perez and Chagaev

Morales, Liakhovich, Arreola and Ortiz than Ruiz post-Wilder

 

"What does any of the prove?"

It proves that Wilder generally performs better than other name fighters against mutual opponents. It's one way of measuring quality and attributes. Later you say "Ortiz didn't look impressive against Kauffman" as some kind of serious black mark, so quality of performances against lesser fighters do matter when it suits you.

"Wilder couldn't drop Duhuapas while Helenius and Povetkin sparked him out."

Wrong, Duhaupas sparked Helenius out. Povetkin stopped Duhaupas quicker but he didn't stop Firtha over 10, who Wilder KO'd in 4.

"He would batter every single journeyman and b level contender on Wilder's resume, and he beats Fury for me."

In your imagination sure, in reality two B level contenders sparked him out.

"However he failed when he stepped up to the elite level"

As did ATG Wlad Klitschko, who landed the fewest recorded punches against a contender in heavyweight history according to Compubox. I don't care about the excuses, Fury got in the ring to fight Wilder after 12 months in training so he felt he was ready. If Fury underestimated Wilder then that's an advantage Wilder had/has as a fighter.

"Finally how did any of that counter what I said?"

You dishonestly claimed that Ortiz being ducked was merely "a narrative" in response to quotes from team Povetkin and team Joyce saying that they ducked him.

Ortiz fought Wilder 5 months after Hearn offered his team the fight on about 4 weeks notice, there was no duck. Likewise, Ortiz fought Ruiz instead of Hrgovic. If he'd fought journeymen instead that would have been one thing.

"He also ruined his own career by failing for PEDs twice and looking rubbish against journeymen."

I don't put much stock in PED tests, I assume all of these fighters are on them and B-side fighters like Ortiz are tested more strenuously. It didn't seriously impact his career either. The fact that you claim Ortiz looked rubbish against Allen shows how absurdly biased you are. Ortiz battered and stopped Allen in 7 in Britain (3 rounds earlier than anyone else to date), having taken about 1/4 as many punches from him as Whyte did one fight prior according to Compubox. It was a Matchroom narrative that Ortiz was "boring" and "didn't look impressive" in order to allow team Joshua to duck him.

"Sanders is a better fighter than him based on his resume."

Perhaps if you ignore KO1 Machimana and KO2 N. Tubbs.

"Tbh I laughed a little when you said Stiverne was as good as Sanders."

I didn't, Ortiz and Stiverne > Sanders and Chisora doesn't mean Stiverne > Sanders. I'm making the point that Vitali's best wins aren't clearly better than Wilder's. It's debatable either way. If you want to criticise the quality of Wilder's top wins then the same must be said of the 10+ year retired Vitali.

 

You keep going on about how overrated AJ is yet wins over Wlad, Povetkin and Parker s***s all over Wilder's resume

 

Up on the scorecards and gets knocked out.

 

"I meant Duhuapas KO6 Helenius"

How was that an argument against Wilder? He was the first to stop Duhaupas and KO'd Helenius in 1.

"Wilder did the worse against Molina"

Sure, he had a bad fight against Molina, who was in the best form of his career and came to fight for a change. He's still done a better job on the whole than Fury, Wlad, Vitali, Joshua, Ortiz, Povetkin, Joyce, Wallin, Ruiz, Miller and Whyte against their mutual opponents.

"Who sparked out Vitali?"

Having an iron chin is overrated, especially if you're overconfident in your ability to absorb head damage as Vitali was. Joyce wasn't sparked out either by he still had his eye caved in and lost anyway. Vitali picked up a shoulder injury by missing against Byrd and quit, got badly cut against Lewis and was stopped by the doctor. And he couldn't put a dent in either over 15 rounds despite throwing the kitchen sink, whereas three other fighters had blown them out early doors.

"saying everyone is on them is a straw-man argument."

You don't understand what a strawman argument is.

Vitali popped for steroids too btw.

"Ortiz got dropped twice by Martin and looked terrible"

42 year old, 404 fights amateur and pro Ortiz got up and sent Martin to mars with one shot. How many more impressive heavyweight wins can you think of by fighters as old or older?

"he's vastly overrated and not beaten anyone."

That's a great point about Vitali.