Muhammad Ali vs Gene Tunney

He was clearly robbed.

 

Thank you kindly.
I think its blatantly obvious that a technical boxer and a good counter-puncher would be troublesome for Ali.
I think Tunney possibly beats Rocky. Rocky had a great deal of trouble with Jersey Joe before landing that punch from hell in the 13th and Tunney was a better fighter (though not as scintillating to watch), Archie Moore also gave him problems and so did LaStarza who arguably won their 1st meeting all these guys were around Tunney's size but imo not on the same level of skill.
Its only slightly plausible that Tunney might scurry away with a decision against a prime Liston (who in my opinion was the most dangerous heavyweight of all time minus Louis and prime Dempsey) but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

Have you seen the complete fight?
Primo Carnera vs Tommy Loughran HD - YouTube

• Referee: Leo Shea 1-10
• Judge: Roy Latham 3-12
• Judge: Colin McLaughlin 1-10

 

How is this thread still going

 

Would favor Ali while being open to the possibility that Tunney might be surprisingly competitive and could make Ali supporters sweat if the fight's still competitive going into the last third.

 

What do you call people who speak upon history and boxing but who have created a completely baseless fable as their narrative for both?

Tunney was an excellent champion of the white lightheavies of his era. Otherwise, he has almost zero credentials in a discussion of the better heavies of the 20th century and zero status as a "great". There is no basis, either from his credentials or some supposed magical style that is represented on film, to consider him remotely competitive with the guy who in his prime possessed an almost unsolvable style and who constructed the single greatest resume in the division's history.

 

'Unsolvable style' sounds a little fabular don't you think?

 

Clay/Ali prime? If there ever was a heavyweight almost unsolvable (almost, as I stated), that was it.

 

I agree with this statement up until the time these modern-day giants arrived onto the scene. I'm not saying Ali couldn't make a good show, but he'd have a helluva time working his way through all of them.

 

Thanks you well established how smaller men can defeat larger ones.
However I never contested this. Guys waaaay smaller than other opponents can easily win-take a pro boxer vs. any average man.
Great fighters can beat excellent pros who are larger. Although none of these victories are of a massive weight difference.

The question & my claim is about how much an advantage it is-with me saying that if you effectively normalize for skills by taking the very BEST a division has produced over a long period of time-so that statistically you are gonna have near the best possible guys exploiting stylstic & divisional/size effectively ecological niches...

That being larger in height reach & effective muscular weight is a big difference!
So you correct for talent differentials by comparing the best.
That is why I used MW vs. LHW-with a longer history & generally thought to be the most crowded, competitive & talent rich division, MW (part of it is more guys naturally come in there, in the past maybe at least as much at WW...)

And thus taking a Hagler or Monzon even you cannot say more than "call me crazy but I think Hagler would last the distance against Spinks".
That 15 lbs. difference, less than 10% of body weight if both are at the divisional limit (or same distance from it), makes a quite significant difference!

 

Agreed Kid.

Not that he couldn’t do it, but fighting a careers worth as the smaller man is a totally different prospect to abstract H2H considerations.

For example, as skilful, durable and intelligent a boxer as Usyk is, he still has to work that much harder as the smaller man each and every time out, thus more wear/tear.

Of course Fury isn’t so stupid as to not understand that the period that Usyk can remain at the absolute top of his game (which he needs to be among the bigger boys) is relatively more limited than the actual super sized HWs.

 

Walcott hit appreciably harder than Tunney ,imo.

 

I think it's also well established that;
Though a great smaller man will often beat a good bigger man.a great bigger man usually beats a great smaller man.
Tunney was very astutely managed,building his resume on past,or pre prime cruisers and light heavies,whilst somehow missing;
Wills
Godfrey
Sharkey
Uzcudun
Norfolk
Firpo
Maloney
On his way to his big paydays against the Mauler.
A straight fight between the budding contender Tunney v Jack Renault might have been educational for us,alas their meeting was a farce with neither man trying. Tunney's win over Weinert is for me one of his better performances.
Tunney was a great light heavy he may be the best though Charles would give him all he wanted,but he does not have the resume to be seriously considered a great heavyweight,and I contend no boxer unproven at the heavier weight is beating Ali.
A poster suggested Tunney could beat Liston,well Tunney had a great set of wheels and Liston never learned to cut off the ring,but can we really expect Tunney to out jab Sonny?

Addition.
Liston couldn't nail Machen,but Eddie fought a defensive fight and Liston was a convincing winner.
If Tunney wanted to win he would have to exchange at some point. Tunney was only floored twice in his career,but the only heavyweight banger he faced was an old Dempsey,who,when he finally managed to crowd Gene into a corner,dropped him for 14 seconds.Could he absorb Sonny's power and remain upright? We don't know.

Liston victims such as Machen, Patterson,and Folley would each give Tunney interesting nights work imo.

 

Hi thanks, but your first response about the light heavies was cut off!

Also Tunney fought pretty often, I had not heard the accusation that he was steered away from the best contenders.
But I do not know that division & period very well...
Sometimes it is said about say Frazier & punchers-until one George Foreman of course, & Rocky did not face much in the way of sluggers either-akthough whether ecellent ones were then available is a question...

 

The fact remains he never fought any of those on that list and they were all ranked when he was, apart from Norfolk ,whom he could have met as a Lhvy.
Neither Frazier or Marciano faced many real big hitters.