My Own Re-Evaluation of Benny Leonard - P4P Sense

WhataRock · May 21, 2020

Excellent work GC. Enjoyed reading that.

Mendoza · May 21, 2020

One thing on Leonard, he had no color line, and fought the best out there, period.

louis54 · May 26, 2020

Greb number one.....yep

LoadedGlove · May 26, 2020

George Crowcroft said: ↑

Total record of 186-22-9, with 15 of those losses very early in his career (IE: before a world level win), and then one more at the very end of his career to a prime ATG WW in Jimmy McLarnin and another on a very controversial Disqualification. So that's 17 of 22 losses which can be accounted for. Holy ****.

The other losses (which happened in his prime) came to Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh and Johnny Killbane twice. The final loss is a little later on, to Willie Ritchie.

Looking at that résumé, which really is as deep as they come, the first (genuinely) noteworthy win I can pull out is the fight with an aging Philadelphia Pal Moore, who had beaten Jim Driscoll, Battling Nelson, and Johnny Dundee among others.

The next is a Italian born Rocky Kansas, who's for my money a top 20-25 LW and probably a top 120 P4P fighter. Afterwards there's the fight with LW champion Freddie Welsh. Welsh is a top 10 LW and top 50 P4P in my mind, and would've been a title fight win of the press didn't score it. Either way, Leonard bags another win over an ATG. He'd repeat this a little over a year later, in which time he'd already lost to Welsh. This third fight with Freddie meant he was now the LW champion, and the man in quite possibly the strongest lightweight era ever (although it'd be my second choice). He'd avenge his loss to ATG Johnny Dundee that year too.

Two months later he'd take on former two time conquerer Johnny Killbane, a fight which he'd win in 3 rounds. Killbane being a top 10 FW ever and a top 50 P4P guy, he's also someone who has a 9 year title reign at 126. Very underrated fighter. And an excellent win. He'd later follow up this win two more over top 5/6 welterweight of-all-time, Jack Britton. Then a few months later he'd beat Patsy Cline, fresh of his win over Dundee. He'd take on elite LW contender, Willie Jackson, who had beaten Dundee (multiple times, including a KO1) and took a decision vs Kansas.

Leonard would take on Ted Kid Lewis, resulting in a draw, in a fight which the newspapers say could go either way. Had Leonard won this, and bagged the other title win over Britton (the bogus DQ I mentioned earlier) he'd be a lock for top 5 P4P.

He'd beat Dundee (top 20 FW/Top 120 P4P), Jackson and more tough men of the era, before losing a decision to Ritchie. A loss which he'd avenge two months later. He'd also beat Cline, Dundee (again... twice) and beat one Soldier Bartfield. An ATG résumé hidden beneath a spotted record. Bart would actually beat Lewis, Britton, Mike Gibbons and Harry Greb... Leonard would beat him 4 times. The Ghetto Wizard also grabbed wins over note-worthy challengers like Ritchie Mitchel and Charlie White. Leonard also repeated some of the wins, Dundee and Kansas.

Now, Leonard's first career is winding down at this point. He'd already lost that DQ to Britton, and was gearing towards retirement. At this point, he took on up and coming ATG southpaw Lew Tendler. He beat the man who beat Mitchell, Dundee and Ritchie, twice, and both of these win came by decisions in title fights.

**** yah I like brackets... now of that's not an ATG résumé, I don't wanna see what is. I consider someone as 'prime' if I can't discredit a loss (based on age) during that period. Now, I think this makes Leonard eligible from 1914-1923, a 9 year period is very impressive. Not many can sustain this level of activity (over a 100 fights) and stay at an ATG level of fighting during that time. Another little thing which should highlight his greatness, is that Ray Arcel himself called Benny Leonard the best LW ever. And this is a man who trained Roberto Durán. He also said he's one of the two best he ever saw (with Robinson) but had the best 'mental energy' by some distance.

Benny Leonard was very much a stylist of that era. But it's evident he was the best of them. His jab came from his mid section; fast and snappy. His defence was largely based on quick head-movement and having his hands and feet in the perfect position to offset his opponents. A lost art. Leonard liked a Larry Holmes-esc manoeuvre when he shifted his weight backwards, and then let loose a right uppercut on a dipping head.

An analyst, and man who's greatest asset was without question his brain. He'd map out blueprints to beat his opponents. He knew that people could do to him what he did to them, so he learnt to build a backdoor in his strategy, so to speak. If Benny Leonard could map out blueprints to beat world level fighters, why couldn't one do it him? Well, the reasons are that: #1. Leonard was by far the savviest LW at the time, and the flashes of brilliance he shows on the limited footage prove this. #2. is that Leonard's lexicon was so complete, he could change his style at a whim. This is seen when he starts to change from his normal upright boxing stance to a tidy in-fighter with mastery in the clinch. You can train for one version, then have to fight the other and Leonard was good enough to beat you with either.

_______________________
So I made this thread on account of me rehashing my LW list. I figured why not have a couple cursory Boxrec's, review tapes, read reports ect. and this turned into hours of Benny Leonard related fun. Which in turn, led to me definitely having him #1 LW, and now probably top 10-12 P4P. I found out a lot of great wins I knew nothing about today and figured why not turn my notes into something 'presentable' and share what I've found out.

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

I would only qualify one point George. Ray Arcel trained Benny as well as Duran.

Gui Dosnera · Sep 4, 2023

George Crowcroft said: ↑

Total record of 186-22-9, with 15 of those losses very early in his career (IE: before a world level win), and then one more at the very end of his career to a prime ATG WW in Jimmy McLarnin and another on a very controversial Disqualification. So that's 17 of 22 losses which can be accounted for. Holy ****.

The other losses (which happened in his prime) came to Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh and Johnny Killbane twice. The final loss is a little later on, to Willie Ritchie.

Looking at that résumé, which really is as deep as they come, the first (genuinely) noteworthy win I can pull out is the fight with an aging Philadelphia Pal Moore, who had beaten Jim Driscoll, Battling Nelson, and Johnny Dundee among others.

The next is a Italian born Rocky Kansas, who's for my money a top 20-25 LW and probably a top 120 P4P fighter. Afterwards there's the fight with LW champion Freddie Welsh. Welsh is a top 10 LW and top 50 P4P in my mind, and would've been a title fight win of the press didn't score it. Either way, Leonard bags another win over an ATG. He'd repeat this a little over a year later, in which time he'd already lost to Welsh. This third fight with Freddie meant he was now the LW champion, and the man in quite possibly the strongest lightweight era ever (although it'd be my second choice). He'd avenge his loss to ATG Johnny Dundee that year too.

Two months later he'd take on former two time conquerer Johnny Killbane, a fight which he'd win in 3 rounds. Killbane being a top 10 FW ever and a top 50 P4P guy, he's also someone who has a 9 year title reign at 126. Very underrated fighter. And an excellent win. He'd later follow up this win two more over top 5/6 welterweight of-all-time, Jack Britton. Then a few months later he'd beat Patsy Cline, fresh of his win over Dundee. He'd take on elite LW contender, Willie Jackson, who had beaten Dundee (multiple times, including a KO1) and took a decision vs Kansas.

Leonard would take on Ted Kid Lewis, resulting in a draw, in a fight which the newspapers say could go either way. Had Leonard won this, and bagged the other title win over Britton (the bogus DQ I mentioned earlier) he'd be a lock for top 5 P4P.

He'd beat Dundee (top 20 FW/Top 120 P4P), Jackson and more tough men of the era, before losing a decision to Ritchie. A loss which he'd avenge two months later. He'd also beat Cline, Dundee (again... twice) and beat one Soldier Bartfield. An ATG résumé hidden beneath a spotted record. Bart would actually beat Lewis, Britton, Mike Gibbons and Harry Greb... Leonard would beat him 4 times. The Ghetto Wizard also grabbed wins over note-worthy challengers like Ritchie Mitchel and Charlie White. Leonard also repeated some of the wins, Dundee and Kansas.

Now, Leonard's first career is winding down at this point. He'd already lost that DQ to Britton, and was gearing towards retirement. At this point, he took on up and coming ATG southpaw Lew Tendler. He beat the man who beat Mitchell, Dundee and Ritchie, twice, and both of these win came by decisions in title fights.

**** yah I like brackets... now of that's not an ATG résumé, I don't wanna see what is. I consider someone as 'prime' if I can't discredit a loss (based on age) during that period. Now, I think this makes Leonard eligible from 1914-1923, a 9 year period is very impressive. Not many can sustain this level of activity (over a 100 fights) and stay at an ATG level of fighting during that time. Another little thing which should highlight his greatness, is that Ray Arcel himself called Benny Leonard the best LW ever. And this is a man who trained Roberto Durán. He also said he's one of the two best he ever saw (with Robinson) but had the best 'mental energy' by some distance.

Benny Leonard was very much a stylist of that era. But it's evident he was the best of them. His jab came from his mid section; fast and snappy. His defence was largely based on quick head-movement and having his hands and feet in the perfect position to offset his opponents. A lost art. Leonard liked a Larry Holmes-esc manoeuvre when he shifted his weight backwards, and then let loose a right uppercut on a dipping head.

An analyst, and man who's greatest asset was without question his brain. He'd map out blueprints to beat his opponents. He knew that people could do to him what he did to them, so he learnt to build a backdoor in his strategy, so to speak. If Benny Leonard could map out blueprints to beat world level fighters, why couldn't one do it him? Well, the reasons are that: #1. Leonard was by far the savviest LW at the time, and the flashes of brilliance he shows on the limited footage prove this. #2. is that Leonard's lexicon was so complete, he could change his style at a whim. This is seen when he starts to change from his normal upright boxing stance to a tidy in-fighter with mastery in the clinch. You can train for one version, then have to fight the other and Leonard was good enough to beat you with either.

_______________________
So I made this thread on account of me rehashing my LW list. I figured why not have a couple cursory Boxrec's, review tapes, read reports ect. and this turned into hours of Benny Leonard related fun. Which in turn, led to me definitely having him #1 LW, and now probably top 10-12 P4P. I found out a lot of great wins I knew nothing about today and figured why not turn my notes into something 'presentable' and share what I've found out.

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Great post!
It would be good to keep this thread "alive" because it's a pearl!

George Crowcroft · Sep 4, 2023

Every single time I read something about Benny Leonard, I'm just more and more sure that he's the greatest lightweight of all time.

Gui Dosnera · Sep 4, 2023

George Crowcroft said: ↑

Every single time I read something about Benny Leonard, I'm just more and more sure that he's the greatest lightweight of all time.
Click to expand...

I agree!

Melankomas · Sep 4, 2023

LW GOAT and lock for top 15 IMO.

George Crowcroft · Sep 4, 2023

Gui Dosnera said: ↑

I agree!
Click to expand...

It's just ridiculous! Every time I read about a fighter around Benny Leonard the story contains the words "shortly before he lost to Benny Leonard"

I think he's tied at third for the amount of defences he made, he's got one of the best resumes ever, at lightweight, or any weight. He's like essentially the Harry Greb of the lightweight division.

Greg Price99 · Sep 4, 2023

George Crowcroft said: ↑

Every single time I read something about Benny Leonard, I'm just more and more sure that he's the greatest lightweight of all time.
Click to expand...

Agreed & your OP in this thread was an excellent one, George.

When I completed my top 20 rankings in each of the original 8 weight divisions, I attributed every fight each contender for those lists had ever had, to 1 x weight division or another, so that no single fight contributed to my analysis of a fighter at more than 1 x weight division. I considered any non title fight contested above 130lbs & under 140lbs (to make allowance for slightly over the weight, non title fights) as LW fights. According to my notes, on that basis, Benny's LW "highlights" are as follows:

LW Record = 141-9-5; including an astounding 81-0 after his loss to Dundee when he was 20-years old until his final LW contest

LW World title record = 10-0 (9-0 if you discount a no-decision win over then champion Freddie Welsh), during his 8-year reign

Best LW wins = Freddie Welsh (2-1 in total, loss aged 20), Jack Britton, Lew Tendler x 2, Rocky Kansas x 4, Philadelphia Pal Moore, Ritchie Mitchell x 2, Johnny Kilbane (1-1, loss aged 19), Patsy Cline, Johnny Dundee (5-2-2, losses aged 18 & 20), Lockport Jimmy Duffy & Charley White. Most of this stellar win resume was formed in his 81-0 LW run from age 20 until retirement

Gui Dosnera · Sep 4, 2023

George Crowcroft said: ↑

It's just ridiculous! Every time I read about a fighter around Benny Leonard the story contains the words "shortly before he lost to Benny Leonard"

I think he's tied at third for the amount of defences he made, he's got one of the best resumes ever, at lightweight, or any weight. He's like essentially the Harry Greb of the lightweight division.
Click to expand...

Leonard's record is absolutely remarkable. He beaten 9 Champions (17-7-3) and 7 HOF's (16-7-3).
He managed to stop 4 HOF's (Willie Ritchie, Rocky Kansas, Kilbane and Welsh). He had fights against HOF's every year from 1915 till 1923, which is quite a legendary stuff.
Leonard's record is simply Legendary

mcvey · Sep 4, 2023

George Crowcroft said: ↑

Total record of 186-22-9, with 15 of those losses very early in his career (IE: before a world level win), and then one more at the very end of his career to a prime ATG WW in Jimmy McLarnin and another on a very controversial Disqualification. So that's 17 of 22 losses which can be accounted for. Holy ****.

The other losses (which happened in his prime) came to Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh and Johnny Killbane twice. The final loss is a little later on, to Willie Ritchie.

Looking at that résumé, which really is as deep as they come, the first (genuinely) noteworthy win I can pull out is the fight with an aging Philadelphia Pal Moore, who had beaten Jim Driscoll, Battling Nelson, and Johnny Dundee among others.

The next is a Italian born Rocky Kansas, who's for my money a top 20-25 LW and probably a top 120 P4P fighter. Afterwards there's the fight with LW champion Freddie Welsh. Welsh is a top 10 LW and top 50 P4P in my mind, and would've been a title fight win of the press didn't score it. Either way, Leonard bags another win over an ATG. He'd repeat this a little over a year later, in which time he'd already lost to Welsh. This third fight with Freddie meant he was now the LW champion, and the man in quite possibly the strongest lightweight era ever (although it'd be my second choice). He'd avenge his loss to ATG Johnny Dundee that year too.

Two months later he'd take on former two time conquerer Johnny Killbane, a fight which he'd win in 3 rounds. Killbane being a top 10 FW ever and a top 50 P4P guy, he's also someone who has a 9 year title reign at 126. Very underrated fighter. And an excellent win. He'd later follow up this win two more over top 5/6 welterweight of-all-time, Jack Britton. Then a few months later he'd beat Patsy Cline, fresh of his win over Dundee. He'd take on elite LW contender, Willie Jackson, who had beaten Dundee (multiple times, including a KO1) and took a decision vs Kansas.

Leonard would take on Ted Kid Lewis, resulting in a draw, in a fight which the newspapers say could go either way. Had Leonard won this, and bagged the other title win over Britton (the bogus DQ I mentioned earlier) he'd be a lock for top 5 P4P.

He'd beat Dundee (top 20 FW/Top 120 P4P), Jackson and more tough men of the era, before losing a decision to Ritchie. A loss which he'd avenge two months later. He'd also beat Cline, Dundee (again... twice) and beat one Soldier Bartfield. An ATG résumé hidden beneath a spotted record. Bart would actually beat Lewis, Britton, Mike Gibbons and Harry Greb... Leonard would beat him 4 times. The Ghetto Wizard also grabbed wins over note-worthy challengers like Ritchie Mitchel and Charlie White. Leonard also repeated some of the wins, Dundee and Kansas.

Now, Leonard's first career is winding down at this point. He'd already lost that DQ to Britton, and was gearing towards retirement. At this point, he took on up and coming ATG southpaw Lew Tendler. He beat the man who beat Mitchell, Dundee and Ritchie, twice, and both of these win came by decisions in title fights.

**** yah I like brackets... now of that's not an ATG résumé, I don't wanna see what is. I consider someone as 'prime' if I can't discredit a loss (based on age) during that period. Now, I think this makes Leonard eligible from 1914-1923, a 9 year period is very impressive. Not many can sustain this level of activity (over a 100 fights) and stay at an ATG level of fighting during that time. Another little thing which should highlight his greatness, is that Ray Arcel himself called Benny Leonard the best LW ever. And this is a man who trained Roberto Durán. He also said he's one of the two best he ever saw (with Robinson) but had the best 'mental energy' by some distance.

Benny Leonard was very much a stylist of that era. But it's evident he was the best of them. His jab came from his mid section; fast and snappy. His defence was largely based on quick head-movement and having his hands and feet in the perfect position to offset his opponents. A lost art. Leonard liked a Larry Holmes-esc manoeuvre when he shifted his weight backwards, and then let loose a right uppercut on a dipping head.

An analyst, and man who's greatest asset was without question his brain. He'd map out blueprints to beat his opponents. He knew that people could do to him what he did to them, so he learnt to build a backdoor in his strategy, so to speak. If Benny Leonard could map out blueprints to beat world level fighters, why couldn't one do it him? Well, the reasons are that: #1. Leonard was by far the savviest LW at the time, and the flashes of brilliance he shows on the limited footage prove this. #2. is that Leonard's lexicon was so complete, he could change his style at a whim. This is seen when he starts to change from his normal upright boxing stance to a tidy in-fighter with mastery in the clinch. You can train for one version, then have to fight the other and Leonard was good enough to beat you with either.

_______________________
So I made this thread on account of me rehashing my LW list. I figured why not have a couple cursory Boxrec's, review tapes, read reports ect. and this turned into hours of Benny Leonard related fun. Which in turn, led to me definitely having him #1 LW, and now probably top 10-12 P4P. I found out a lot of great wins I knew nothing about today and figured why not turn my notes into something 'presentable' and share what I've found out.

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Fine post.Arcel later said Duran was the best Lightweight,He only trained the older Leonard making a comeback at Welter.

Jpreisser · Sep 4, 2023

As I've mentioned before, from the Dundee loss in 1916 to the Britton one in 1922, Leonard went 86-1-1 and those blemishes weren't at lightweight. One was a 4-rounder too. Given the disparity of Hall-of-Famers fought, those who rank Duran above Leonard seem to be doing it more on who was better rather than who was greater at the weight, because Leonard's resume appears quite a bit better.

Ioakeim Tzortzakis · Sep 4, 2023

When it comes down to it, I think Benny Leonard and Joe Gans are the two greatest Lightweights of all time, strictly by their resumes in the division. Coincidentally, I've recently found an image of Leonard paying respect to Gans in his grave

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George Crowcroft · Sep 4, 2023

George Crowcroft said: ↑

Yeah, I agree on the Pep < Leonard issue. I think Durán is definitely better P4P, but I'd give Benny the nod at 135. Welsh imo is much greater than Buchanan and DeJesús, and Tendler is on their level. It's a rough list, but I reckon my top 15 P4P would be:

#15. Jimmy Wilde
#14. Barney Ross
#13. Joe Gans
#12. Willie Pep
#11. Packey McFarland
#10. Benny Leonard
#9. Archie Moore
#8. Bob Fitzsimmons
#7. Muhammad Ali
#6. Roberto Durán
#5. Sugar Ray Robinson
#4. Ezzard Charles
#3. Henry Armstrong
#2. Sam Langford
#1. Harry Greb

I also think that you're right re: innovation. I'd add Bob Fitzsimmons to that list though, plenty of fighters TODAY use his techniques, specifically his shift and milling.
Click to expand...

Was just thinking about this, and I'd probably have Benny even higher now. Just as a rough draft of what it'd be now:

#01. Harry Greb
#02. Ray Robinson
#03. Henry Armstrong
#04. Sam Langford
#05. Ezzard Charles
#06. Benny Leonard
#07. Roberto Duran
#08. Muhammad Ali
#09. Bob Fitzsimmons
#10. Archie Moore

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My Own Re-Evaluation of Benny Leonard - P4P Sense

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