My Own Re-Evaluation of Benny Leonard - P4P Sense

Nice list George. The ordering is different, but 9 of your 10 appear in mine, with only your #10 not doing. I have Louis (and others) ahead of Moore, though understand arguments for ranking them vice versa and think I likely underrate Moore.

I have Duran at #7 and Leonard #8 p4p, based on their entire careers at all weights. Based solely in fights at LW (allowing a few pounds over for slightly over the weight non title fights), I have Leonard #1, Gans #2 and Duran #3.

Frankly, if I ignored the "status" of world title fights and reigns, and focused solely on who each fighter beat, lost to, when and how, McFarland would be above Duran too.

What Roberto did above LW impresses me enormously from a p4p perspective though. SRL is arguably the greatest win of all time, being competitive with a top 3 all time MW in a close(ish) fight is remarkable for a guy who was a LW in his prime and a 37 year old beating a world class boxer who held the size advantage Barkley did over him is astonishing. To say nothing of wins over Palomino, Cuevas and Moore.

 

Nice list, again George, 9 of my top 10 are there. I have it:

1. Leonard
2. Gans
3. Duran
4. McFarland
5. Whittaker
6. Ortiz
7. Williams
8. Ambers
9. Welsh
10. Canzernori

I could so easily see my #11, Sammy Mandell, anywhere from 8-10.

I have Armstrong down at #16, but
that is due to my criteria of each fight contributing to a fighters resume in one division only. I have him at #10 at FW and #4 WW based on fights in those divisions only. He's my #4 p4p all time, based on all career fights in all weight divisions.

 

Ummm @George Crowcroft I thought Artur Grigorian was the best LW ever? Your list is wrong!

 

I think Benny is almost locked as my #6 all time P4P. And there's frankly no way I can see him outside the top 10. And certainly not by any fellow Lightweights like Gans or Duran. His Lightweight resume just kinda craps on anyone's, and his exploits above 135 are enough to still keep him in the lead.

Freddie Welsh is one of the 10 greatest Lightweights to ever draw breath, and Leonard beat him 2-1, becoming the only fighter to ever stop him in the process.

Rocky Kansas was a terrorist who smashed half the divison with his wins over Lockport Jimmy Duffy, Ritchie Mitchell, Charlie White, Willie Jackson, Pinky Mitchell and Frankie Britt. He even beat Featherweight legend Johnny Kilbane. Leonard beat Kansas 4-0 in their series. Leonard also beat every single Kansas victim I just mentioned, with no exception, and never lost a single time except vs Kilbane when he had just turned 19 prior to winning the rematch.

He also beat Kansas' other primary conquerors to prove his further superiority. Lew Tendler being the most famous one, where Benny went 2-0. The other was Johnny Dundee, who Benny went 4-2-2 with. All the 4 wins came in a row, when Benny had reached his prime.

And for what it's worth, he also has wins over most other notable Lightweights of the era. Willie Ritchie, Mel Coogan, Frankie Callahan, Patsy Cline, Phil Bloom, James Herring, probably more. He basically did to Lightweight what Muhammad Ali did to Heavyweight. Just beat everyone.

And that's without getting into his Welterweight exploits. Think about how lauded Duran's victory over Leonard is, then imagine if he had won the series. That's what Benny did vs Jack Britton, who while not quite as great as Ray Leonard, is still one of the top 10, possibly 5, Welterweights of all time. It's just not as mythologised due to the lack of film where we can't see the action for ourselves. Benny went 2-1 against him, and the only thing stopping him from going 3-0 was a DQ for hitting Britton when he was down ala Jones vs Griffin and was about to finish him off. Leonard also drew with Britton's biggest nemesis, Ted Kid Lewis, in a fight that could have reportedly gone either way.

Oh, and he also went 4-0 vs Soldier Bartfield, the same Soldier Bartfield that not even Harry Greb could go undefeated against. Granted, he was clearly past it for the latter 2 bouts, but still. This is a Lightweight who beat the guy who beat the guy who beat the future Heavyweight champion of the world. And for what it's worth, in his comeback in the 30s he managed to beat 2 ranked Welterweights in Paulie Walker and Billy Townsend before losing to McLarnin. Not anything special, but it's something.

No way he's not in the top 10. No way.

 

Hi Buddy.
Thanks for the time and effort put into the above post, sometimes you have to be reminded of a fighters career and achievements to fully appreciate the true greatness of said fighter, as in Leonards case, resumes like this, and Greb,s make eye popping reading, there is a case for having Greb No 1, and Leonard No2, in a ATG list, maybe, as to the fight with Lewis, his son Morton told me that Ted had Benny as the best he ever fought, and learned more from their encounter than a 100 other fights, furthermore he felt that Leonard was not at full stretch, and didn't fight flat out, interesting no ! .
stay safe, chat soon.
Mike.