How the Classic Forum rate Rocky Graziano ??

Asking questions and then answering them yourself isn't a good look.

Why did you feel the need to bring Lamotta into this thread?

If you wanted to assert he was, as you say a weight bully,why didn't you make a thread about it instead of hijacking this one?

 

most guys did against Robinson, Graziano did more than most though.

 

Not here to fluff up Graziano but his wildness nearly worked when he nailed ray with that one shot and sent him down. Of course Robinson is one of the best finisher of all time and got Graziano out quick (god what a spectacular KO that was)

 

Spoken like a true Ketchel fan

 

That shouldn't have counted as a knockdown.

 

You brought up beating up on welterweights as a mark against Graziano. I was responding to that.

Apparently you think beating up on welters to build a resume is fine if it’s a 165-pound LaMotta against a 150-pounder but not when it’s Graziano weighing 153 with a much smaller weight advantage. Rocky was almost always below 160, sometimes well below. In a later era he’d have been a junior middleweight — Jake would have been a super middleweight or light heavy for most of his fights.

 

I think its permissible if ,as well as fighting top welters,you take on the likes of;
Nardico
Murphyx2
Lytell
Booker
Williams
Dauthille x2
Villemain
Raadik
Mitri
Cerdan
Yarosz
Hunter
Hudson
Basora x2
Welch
Marshall
Kochan x2
Edgar
O Neil Bell x2
Woods
I think that's a better resume than any middleweight currently active.

And compares favourably with most men who held the 160lbs title.
If you don't, its no big deal to me,carry on with your crusade knock yourself out !

 

That's a better resume than all but 3 middleweights the last 60 yrs...

 

It’s quite a list of names.

Of course:

1) He didn’t win all of those fights.

2) He wasn’t a middleweight for a good many of them, so I don’t see how that enhances his resume as a middleweight — props to you on your careful working of ‘men who have held the 160-pound title’ rather than ‘at 160 pounds.’

For instance, he lost to Cecil Hudson (a name on your list). He outweighed Hudson by 10 pounds, coming in at 165 (that’s a light heavyweight against a small middle). But let’s dig yet a little deeper still: Hudson had 21 losses on the way to 47 in his career … yet you include him on this list as if he was some fearsome foe. He fought at 143 pounds just 8 months earlier. Oh, and immediately after beating Jake he lost 14 of his next 15 fights.

If that enhances LaMotta’s greatness in your eyes, carry on with yours.

Why don’t you break your list down by wins, losses, what Jake weighed and what his opponent weighed … and what they had commonly been weighing before Jake fought them?

He was a great super middleweight fighting welters and junior middles before either division existed. But continue to worship at his altar.

BTW, he only fought Cerdan once. But the list is more impressive if you include him three times, lol.

 

What the heck. Had some time on my hand and was interested in doing the research. Here’s my breakdown:

Nardico: Jake lost by KO. Both in their 170s. Light heavyweight fight. No idea why you put this on here as proof of his great resume as a middleweight.

Murphyx2: Split two fights, both in the 170s at light heavy. What’s the point here?

Lytell: Jake won, had a 7 1/4-pound weight advantage. Lytell was 18-4-2, Jake was in his 60th fight.

Booker: Not sure who you’re talking about here. Eddie Booker, the Murderer’s Row guy? I can’t find a record of Eddie and Jake ever fighting.

Williams: Jake won. Holman was in the stretch run of his career, the fight coming smack in the middle of a stretch where he lost 4 of 6 on the way to going 6-10-1 on the way to retirement. But I’ll give Jake credit for sweating down to 162.

Dauthille x2: Split two fights. Lost wen he had a 4+ pound weight advantage, won by KO with 13 seconds left when trailing by a large margin on the scorecards.

Villemain: 1-1 vs. each other, with Jake’s win massively booed after a bad split decision in his favor. “Light Heavy LaMotta” weighed 165 in his loss and was, of course, the heavier man.

Raadik: LaMotta won. Raadik was 14-3, Jake in his 75th fight. Impressive.

Mitri: LaMotta won

Cerdan: LaMotta won by KO when Marcel retired on his stool from an injury suffered when Jake threw him to the canvas. Cerdan still won 3 of the first 5 rounds.

DeJohn: W for Jake, who comes in at his couple-pounds-over-the-limit norm.

Cerdan: They only fought the once.

Yarosz: LaMotta go the nod but opinion seems split on who deserves it. Jake weighed in at 164, so actually a light heavyweight fight.

Cerdan: See above. SMFH.

Hunter: Nice light heavyweight win for LaMotta as both were well over the middleweight limit, Jake at 168.

Hudson: Had a 10-pound weight advantage and still lost.

Basora x2: It’s actually x4, with the duo going 2-1-1. Jake’s loss and draw came when he was only the bigger man by 3 pounds; his two wins he was heavier by 5+.

Welch: W for LaMotta with both weighing 163.

Marshall: Jake lost. Amazingly, Marshall was the heavier by nearly 2 pounds.

Kochan x2: 2-0 in LaMotta’s favor. Not exactly a great but a god fighter who was 40-22-11 in his career. I think he’s the only man to fight Jake more than once who outweighed him twice, by 2 and 4 1/2 pounds.

Edgar: 2-0-1 in a three-fight series in Jake’s favor. LaMotta’s weight advantages were 5 3/4ths, 6 1/2 and a whopping 10 3/4 when Edgar came in at 149 1/4. Great stuff for the ‘middleweight’ resume.

O Neil Bell x2: Weight advantage to Jake for both wins of 6+ pounds. Bell was 15-4-3 first time they fought, in Jake’s 75th outing. Oh, and Jake weighed over 167 for the second fight, with Bell at 152 for the first. So one weight-bully win and another light heavyweight win.

Woods: Jake fought two guys named Woods. One was at light heavyweight (Walter) where LaMotta was actually 2 1/2 pounds the smaller man; the other (Lou) Jake was heavier by 6 1/2 pounds.

My take: Seems like most of Jake’s great ‘middleweight’ wins were more than a couple of pounds over the middleweight limit and many of those he was absolutely a light heavyweight by that day’s standard (super middle in many cases today) … and way more often than not he had a significant weight advantage.

So yes, a weight bully.

He also lost a fair few. And that’s from your list of all the great ‘middleweights’ he fought. And not to mention the 20+ fights over quality welters (and others who weren’t really high level) where he was 6-16 pounds heavier.

Why you chose to include fights over relative novices who had a fraction of the number of fights Jake had when they met on this list, or pure light heavyweight fights or fights that didn’t even happen (Cerdan three times, Booker) is a mystery, but it did make the list longer.

I’d be really surprised if there has ever been a non-heavyweight who had as many fights with a significant weight advantage as LaMotta.

 

Agreed, you almost knew there would be a KO.

Haven’t seen you on the forum for a while mate, hope you are doing well.

 

Iirc, the crowd also booed Jake being awarded the decision vs a past prime Holman Williams and press reports favoured Holman.

 

Whether he won or lost those fights wasn't the point,the point was he fought them.
You used the term great not me.I'm not carrying this on further.Jake took on Murderers Row guys nobody wanted to fight.
I suggest you make a thread outliining all your reservations about Lamotta .

IMO he would have beaten Zale and Graziano given the chance.

 

Didn't know that. Thanks Klompton!