Excerpt from SI about Joe Frazier's disdain for Ali

IMO, and I think I have said this before here, Joe’s biggest issue was that he thought what happened on March 8, 1971, settled things forevermore and that Ali would disappear from both the public and boxing consciousness. That was a naive assumption on Joe’s part, not stemming from any lack of intelligence on his part as idiots like Pacheco asserted, but because he was a straightforward, no BS, what you see is what you get guy … which I think is a lot of his appeal … who could only look at things through the prism of boxing and couldn’t fathom that Ali transcended that. And there was nothing Joe could do physically or otherwise to change that.

 

Oh wow, that's interesting. I always thought that Ali did that to spare his brother from a left hook to the noggin or maybe save Joe from having a gat pulled on him, as the imposing Rudy had his hand in his trench coat pocket right before Ali grabbed him.

 

Debate on this will run and run - and has.

Yes,Muhammad went way over the top on the names he called Joe and he admitted it later on down the line. Frazier was understandably peed off at the time,but let's be honest - I know that some will think I'm "farting in church" but Joe was also out of order in some of his responses to Ali over it all. His sick comments about Muhammad's Parkinsons for a start. And for all the talk about Frazier being a straight ahead kind of guy,he was quite two faced to Muhammad several times over the years. Coming on the Ali 'This Is Your Life' show,hugging him and saying "Ladies and gentlemen,we all love him" etc.etc. And in some interviews slagging Muhammad off but seeming more concilatory in others. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Frazier's view of Ali coincided with his view of the world at the particular current moment in time. If all was right with the world then Ali was alright with him. However if joe was was pissed off with everything else then he was pissed off with Muhammad.

I had all the respect in the world for Smokin' Joe but let's not paint him too much as the poor innocent little victim. I do expect to take some flack for this,so I've got my mouthpiece in. Lol.

 

Roberto Duran sexually harassed Ray Leonard's wife in front of him which is the worst thing you can do to a man and yet they are friends today. Why doesn't Ray harbor any animus towards Duran today ? I think we know why.

 

Good points, and I agree about Frazier's post-fighting love/hate feelings regarding Ali. Also, before Ali ever called Joe an "Uncle Tom," Frazier called Ali "Clay". He said it as early as 1967. They also appeared on the Mike Douglas Show together in 1969 and Frazier again called Ali "Clay" and kept going on about how he was gonna whup him. Ali was quite humble throughout the appearance -- I don't recall him insulting Frazier at all.

Ali definitely went overboard but it can be argued Frazier threw the first punch.

 

I told this story before . What do you guys think? I'll tell the whole story because I like to tell stories. One time my best friend and business partner and I were playing pool at his home and I noticed he had an autographed photo of Joe Frazier. I asked him where he got it and he said at an autograph show. He sheepishly told me because he knows I love Ali that he told Joe as he was autographing the photo, "You made Ali the way he is" implicitly alluding to Ali's Parkinson's and Joe said don't say that.

 

Good post. I first saw that Mike Douglas interview with both fighters about a year ago. Also notable that it was probably their only interview together when Muhammad was actually quieter than Joe.

 

Holding a resentment is like drinking poison and hoping the other person will die from it.

Joe drank poison over Ali for most of his life. Seems to have made him a pretty miserable person.

It would have been better for all concerned — mostly him — for him to have let it go. To err is human; to forgive, divine. “Words can hurt” is not something to hold onto for decades.

 

Ken Norton was a sharp guy.

 

I dont think Ali deserved such a long hatred, especially well into Parkinsons; you can tell Ali actually really liked Joe Frazier. Even once quoting that if he had to go to holy war, he'd hope he had Joe at his side.

But ultimately both had skeletons in their closet and Ali did accidentally cause Joe Frazier's kids to become bullied at school, along with Ali just outshining Joe at any sort of interview and basically stealing his name from an era (although I think Foreman had just as much of a hand in that)

Ultimately i think it was a bit pathetic of Frazier to hate Ali for that long, but also I understand the pain he went through. Its a tough situation overall

 

I strongly disagree

 

Joe Louis also called him Clay and Ali didn't seem to mind

 

True, but we know Ali hated being called that. I mean, Ali took extra pleasure in punishing Ernie Terrell for doing just that. Same with Floyd Patterson. I think he gave Louis a pass out of sheer respect and admiration for the man.

 

I respect the alternate opinions but I can’t buy into the even apportioning of blame.

However, I do agree that it was ultimately to Joe’s detriment if his preoccupation with Ali caused him varying degrees of self misery.

Quite simply, Ali was THE common denominator to several nasty exchanges between he and several other of his opponents.

As far as I know, Joe himself never had such issues with any of his other opponents. It seems that several of Ali’s other targets also enjoyed relatively peaceful dynamics with their opposition otherwise.

In fact, it seemed Joe Frazier was notably civil and courteous re his opposition otherwise - unless I’ve missed any particular exceptions .

By the time of their 3rd fight, their overall reputations and specific rivalry well preceded them.

The mere mention of Ali vs Frazier garnered a huge amount of attention and interest in its own right. Already very well branded.

Some degree of promotion is always helpful but Ali maintained the caustic comments re Joe and then took it another level labelling Joe as The Gorilla - so was Joe supposed to take that also and then let bygones be bygones after the fight? I don’t think so.

Ali himself could’ve kicked off the promotion for Manila with a real time, new found and due respect for Joe - but he clearly chose not to. He remained with the same old routine.

I believe, given that stage of Joe’s career, that Ali himself truly believed that he was nicely set up to have a good chance of KO’ing Joe in the 3rd match - similar perhaps to how Ray Leonard viewed Hearns being thusly vulnerable in their rematch.

I’m not 100% on it, but even after Manila, I think Ali might’ve still used derogatory terms re Frazier, including Gorilla, from time to time - at the very least, he dredged up such terms in retrospective address of their fights and rivalry.

Later, Tyson copped “Kong” from Ali but that label was in absolute isolation - Ali said nothing derogatory or nasty about Mike otherwise.

An interesting psychological phenomena re guys like Ali is that it seems they become viewed as the designated and totally accepted smart *** - and, there weren’t too many if any announcers pulling him up on the more derogatory stuff he said about Joe - in fact, many laughed along with him.

The only one who didn’t necessarily laugh along and who expressly addressed meanness toward Frazier was Michael Parkinson.

Notably, when Ali became the target for reactive, equal and opposite abusive comments, people became conversely indignant - as if to suggest that their thinking was - “Muhammad can say whatever he likes, we’ll always laugh at same, but you can’t say anything bad to or re Muhammad”.

During his exile, Ali also made fun of punch drunk fighters - flattening his nose and bending his own ear with his hands while speaking gibberish - making the point that he would never end up like such fighters.

Finally, Norton did handle Ali well - but in Ken, Ali encountered an opponent who was on par in looks, physique and mental sharpness - there wasn’t anything in Norton that Ali could latch on to and make fun of.

Whatever Ali said re Norton, it was extremely tame as compared to what Frazier copped.

In fact, particularly during their rubber match, it was Norton’s verbal goading that really got to Ali.

Among other reactions, Ken’s smack talk was enough to even cause a clearly disconcerted Ali to angrily flick a light glove at Ken after the end of one the rounds. That was quite an exception to Ali’s usual mind game hold over his other opposition.

 

I liked the drinks commercial that featured Ray,Roberto and their kids. Was filmed sometime between their first and second bouts.