Foreman never hit Ali with his best shot, right?

Holy didn’t take a shot quite as well as Evan Fields.

 

We can't know whether we saw Holy on film, so how can we tell?

 

Fair play.

Intuitively the count did appear a bit fast. I timed it once - I got exactly 10 seconds.

If George had been deemed to have beaten the count,- and a mere count of an “actual” 11 seconds would’ve allowed for that - then that would’ve left only 2 secs until the end of the round.

As such, Foreman would’ve at least gotten the minute rest also but, just imo, Ali stills puts him away - though Ali was well fatigued himself which actually gave him cause to step it up in round 8.

It seems to me that many counts are a bit longer than a real 10 secs, so when a ref actually finished his count at a true 10 seconds, the count will seem relatively fast.

There have also been some ref’s whose own metering isn’t consistent - some appearing to either toll more slowly or more quickly at some point during the count.

I’ve been a critic of the many excuses plied for Iron Mike - but I actually give him a hearing on the long count afforded to Buster Douglas (13-14 seconds).

Boxing allows for such single shot comebacks - and it can be argued that, for all intents and purposes, Mike perhaps did achieve that.

Sometimes it depends on which fighter(s) hold more favour.

Imagine if Foreman was deemed to have beaten the count and then came out for round 9 to flatten Ali with a single Hail Mary.

I tend to think there would’ve been a huge and negative brouhaha over the count in the first instance with arguments that George should’ve been counted out in the first place in round 8.

 

The other big big factor with all of this----the wear and tear factor. Ali didn't show much of it in 1974. But he should have. a lot of it when you look hard at his opponents. The body punches alone from Chuvalo and Frazier and Norton should have shown obvious damage. Then you add George firing away.

I am very very big on the wear and tear factor in the sport. So many potentail matches and opponent choices boil down to it. And you never know how a guy is going to react to the wear and tear of the sport. It is different than other sports and everyone reacts differently. Some guys have terrific careers but once that wear and tear enters, they deteriorate rapidly.

But looking at all those Ali opponents--he should have shown tons more wear and tear. The best heavyweight I ever saw at it.

The other great accomplishment of the fight--is Ali ignoring his corner's instructions. He figured out the way to beat Foreman and instituted the plan on the fly. How many other fighters thru the years can not pay attention to Angie's instructions between rounds? And then prove him wrong and come out with the W? Only 1 guy--Muhammad Ali.

 

I was referring to the Foreman bout.

YOU are the only one believing everything Ali says. If you actually believe his claim that he was only ever hurt, when he did his exaggerated movements, I have a bridge to sell you.

I must have missed all those people favoring Foreman in a prime for prime bout against Ali.

 

Holy was the real deal - Evan Fields was the simulated compromise ... The size of his head, neck and trapezus muscles in comparison to his cruiserweight self, combined with 'health conditions' make me think he deffo took the super soldier serum that Cap'n 'Murica took.

 

That's a great point about ref count inconsistency. Most 10 second counts are probably between 1 - 1.5 secondish intervals, so with the Buster issue, I do sympathise but just like I say the best fighters tend to break some rules/codes of sportsmanship in their favour and it's up to the referee to enforce the rules, every ref is going to adjudicate differently. It's up to the fighter to maximise the allowances that a ref gives so if the count is 'fast', you better beat it. If the count is slow, take advantage and compose yourself.

The more that I watch the fight again and again, the more that I see Foreman getting lit up in between his winging punches, which whilst stupidly powerful, Ali could see coming and brace himself for. Foreman walked into a lot of rights, combined with his punch output, the heat and his anger - even if he beats the count and comes out for Round 9, I could only see one winner on the night. Ali would have come out for Rounds 10 - 15 and Foreman isn't taking Ali out with a Hail Mary IMO - didn't have the punch mechanics and Ali was reading him too well - Louis, Tyson or Lennox are better placed to get him with the punch that I don't think Foreman would, despite me thinking that Foreman hits harder than them.

 

I was just a kid but I always had faith in Ali. Howard Cosell who had a huge platform leaned heavily into the "Ali might get killed" camp.

 

In many ways, Ali is both championed and a victim of his own toughness. Lesser chinned/sturdy fighters wouldn't have been able to survive the punishment that Ali was able to overcome and defeat. At the same time, in becoming a legend, he certainly took punishment that wasn't conducive to good health. I wouldn't go as far as saying it caused his Parkinson's, but I certainly wouldn't say that it slowed it down or made symptoms less severe.

Boxing's one of those strange endeavours where often the achievement of greatness comes at an expense that might be a bit too high to pay, considering that after they've earned their glories and plaudits, we tear them down for losing to some fighter that they would've massacred in their prime, when they're clearly a semblance of their peak self.

 

Ah, no, even if he was deemed to have beaten the count Foreman still loses imo, and certainly not likely to land a Hail Mary - I just used that to set up the hypothetical and how people might’ve viewed the prior KD in round 8.

Sure, you work with what’s allowed and what isn’t. It’s notable that everything but the count is subject to exact timing - or at least meant to be - like round duration, rest periods etc.

Even timekeepers, as a back up to the ref, defer to exact seconds and exact seconds can comprise part thereof a count when a ref picks up from his timekeeper - which Octavio didn’t do in Tyson v Douglas but I think Clayton did in Zaire.

I think it would be hard tolling an even count when you can see a fighter is going to come very close to getting up in time - without having any necessary bias, you might unconsciously slow your meter.

Another way to view the count in Zaire is, would Clayton have necessarily finished at an exact 10 seconds had it been Ali struggling to rise? Perhaps but who knows?

As a ref I’d definitely prefer a guy either beating the count clearly or having no chance of doing same. Tough gig when the very point at which they arise puts you into the 9- 10 zone of your count.

Even with Octavio’s slowed count I’ve clocked Buster arising at 9.5 per the count, pretty damn close - so if the count hadn’t been quite as long it’s arguable that Buster might not have necessarily been able to arise in time, notwithstanding his attention to the count.

But of course, once it all went down the way it did, there’s no way anyone could know if Buster could or couldn’t have beaten a real 10, 11, 12 or even 13 sec count.

 

Not a single word to add and yes, in the hypothetical that you posed, it would've been uproar and claims of the fix being in, led by none other than Ali, himself.

 

Foreman said years later that he fought the "dumbest" fight of his life against Ali in 1974...

 

Cus talk to Buster Douglas to? Ali was lucky in this fight if the fight happens in the states and the ropes aren’t a mess Foreman wins. Also wins a rematch an immediate rematch not in 1977. Ali is lucky a prime Holmes wasn’t around also and he is lucky Liston took a dive in that 2nd fight

 

Thank you, sir.