Foreman never hit Ali with his best shot, right?

I was referring to the Foreman bout.

YOU are the only one believing everything Ali says. If you actually believe his claim that he was only ever hurt, when he did his exaggerated movements, I have a bridge to sell you.

I must have missed all those people favoring Foreman in a prime for prime bout against Ali.

 

Holy was the real deal - Evan Fields was the simulated compromise ... The size of his head, neck and trapezus muscles in comparison to his cruiserweight self, combined with 'health conditions' make me think he deffo took the super soldier serum that Cap'n 'Murica took.

 

That's a great point about ref count inconsistency. Most 10 second counts are probably between 1 - 1.5 secondish intervals, so with the Buster issue, I do sympathise but just like I say the best fighters tend to break some rules/codes of sportsmanship in their favour and it's up to the referee to enforce the rules, every ref is going to adjudicate differently. It's up to the fighter to maximise the allowances that a ref gives so if the count is 'fast', you better beat it. If the count is slow, take advantage and compose yourself.

The more that I watch the fight again and again, the more that I see Foreman getting lit up in between his winging punches, which whilst stupidly powerful, Ali could see coming and brace himself for. Foreman walked into a lot of rights, combined with his punch output, the heat and his anger - even if he beats the count and comes out for Round 9, I could only see one winner on the night. Ali would have come out for Rounds 10 - 15 and Foreman isn't taking Ali out with a Hail Mary IMO - didn't have the punch mechanics and Ali was reading him too well - Louis, Tyson or Lennox are better placed to get him with the punch that I don't think Foreman would, despite me thinking that Foreman hits harder than them.

 

I was just a kid but I always had faith in Ali. Howard Cosell who had a huge platform leaned heavily into the "Ali might get killed" camp.

 

In many ways, Ali is both championed and a victim of his own toughness. Lesser chinned/sturdy fighters wouldn't have been able to survive the punishment that Ali was able to overcome and defeat. At the same time, in becoming a legend, he certainly took punishment that wasn't conducive to good health. I wouldn't go as far as saying it caused his Parkinson's, but I certainly wouldn't say that it slowed it down or made symptoms less severe.

Boxing's one of those strange endeavours where often the achievement of greatness comes at an expense that might be a bit too high to pay, considering that after they've earned their glories and plaudits, we tear them down for losing to some fighter that they would've massacred in their prime, when they're clearly a semblance of their peak self.

 

Ah, no, even if he was deemed to have beaten the count Foreman still loses imo, and certainly not likely to land a Hail Mary - I just used that to set up the hypothetical and how people might’ve viewed the prior KD in round 8.

Sure, you work with what’s allowed and what isn’t. It’s notable that everything but the count is subject to exact timing - or at least meant to be - like round duration, rest periods etc.

Even timekeepers, as a back up to the ref, defer to exact seconds and exact seconds can comprise part thereof a count when a ref picks up from his timekeeper - which Octavio didn’t do in Tyson v Douglas but I think Clayton did in Zaire.

I think it would be hard tolling an even count when you can see a fighter is going to come very close to getting up in time - without having any necessary bias, you might unconsciously slow your meter.

Another way to view the count in Zaire is, would Clayton have necessarily finished at an exact 10 seconds had it been Ali struggling to rise? Perhaps but who knows?

As a ref I’d definitely prefer a guy either beating the count clearly or having no chance of doing same. Tough gig when the very point at which they arise puts you into the 9- 10 zone of your count.

Even with Octavio’s slowed count I’ve clocked Buster arising at 9.5 per the count, pretty damn close - so if the count hadn’t been quite as long it’s arguable that Buster might not have necessarily been able to arise in time, notwithstanding his attention to the count.

But of course, once it all went down the way it did, there’s no way anyone could know if Buster could or couldn’t have beaten a real 10, 11, 12 or even 13 sec count.

 

Not a single word to add and yes, in the hypothetical that you posed, it would've been uproar and claims of the fix being in, led by none other than Ali, himself.

 

Foreman said years later that he fought the "dumbest" fight of his life against Ali in 1974...

 

Cus talk to Buster Douglas to? Ali was lucky in this fight if the fight happens in the states and the ropes aren’t a mess Foreman wins. Also wins a rematch an immediate rematch not in 1977. Ali is lucky a prime Holmes wasn’t around also and he is lucky Liston took a dive in that 2nd fight

 

Thank you, sir.

 

Again with the ropes tomfoolery. Ali wanted a twenty one foot ring. Foreman obviously wanted something smaller. They agreed on a nineteen foot ring. Somehow they ended up with a sixteen foot ring. Muhammad Ali would have been within his rights to refuse to fight. The referee Zach Clayton said he couldn't believe Ali agreed to fight in a phone booth. The reason the ropes were loose was because they were made for a nineteen foot ring. Everything I said is there for the googling.

 

This is a somewhat contentious question.

I remember Ali's autobiography, where he said around the 5th or 6th round George put him into the bats-playing-saxophones realm of unconsciousness with an uppercut. Pretty sure we can see that on the film (I haven't watched it in one month, 12 hours, and 5 seconds lol).

Yeah, Foreman hit him with some flush shots, but Ali was just ridiculously smart and durable. Perhaps only Holyfield and Frazier could equal Ali in the Warrior Pantheon.

Ali's victory was most certainly a cerebral one as well. In the press he seemed honestly outraged, INDIGNANT that anyone should think George could beat him. He believed his own outrageousness, and to a large part that's how he beat a seemingly unbeatable Monster.

To CONVINCE yourself of being impossible to defeat, to be fine with sacrificing your life toward proving you were RIGHT all this time. It's so inspiring, and I think educative as well.

Ok, so ya got me started on Ali/Foreman. Sorry, I could talk about that fight (and the fighters) all day, and I've embarrassed myself enough lol.

 

I am still so bewildered by the constant Foreman apologism on this forum. Ali defeated Foreman handily using strategy and skill (he landed approximately 100% of the leads and combos he threw), made George look like an amateurish fool and proved his superiority tenfold. Why are people unable to grasp this? It's as definitive a victory as one can be and yet it's still being debated.

It's akin to making excuses for Tyson's loss to Douglas, in my opinion.

 

Ali was a coward and an overrated bum and a disgrace to the country. Point with the ropes was they were loose!! Dummy. Ali, Ali, Ali, Ali yeah ok