Why did Ken Norton's jab trouble Ali so much but Liston's didn't?

Ken Norton said he’d thrown Muhammad Into a corner and that’s what caused it in the 11th or so.

 

These 3 things that have been covered by different posters already:

1. Style. Norton had his head off center and shot his jab upwards from a crouch. Bob Foster had a bit of that also and troubled Ali somewhat with his jab. Many other more conventional jabbers like Liston, Terrell, Ellis, Bugner and Foreman had less success despite being good jabbers.
2. Decline. Ali's style evolved around mobility and reflexes. With those diminished he became more vulnerable. In the rematch, when he was closest to his prime self, Norton's jab wasn't that much of an issue.
3. The success Norton had with his jab has probably been somewhat overstated.

 

Ali was the ultimate reflex boxer. Once his speed and reflexes left him in his late 20ies, he was 'human' so to speak, and got hit a lot.

 

Muhammad Ali was 31 years old when he first faced Ken Norton on March 31 1973, Ali was 22 when he faced Sonny Liston on Feb 25 1964, his reflexes and timing were intact in 1964.

 

Ali, Norton, and Holmes are all 6'3".

 

Norton said that he broke Ali's jaw in the 12th and final round...NOT in the 1st or 2nd round!

 

Ten years

 

Liston was slow as **** and was basic in his style. Ken was more awkward.

 

Norton wasn't Ali, nor was he in Ali's corner.

The initial fracture occurred at 10:03 in the following clip, towards the end of round two, at a moment he had his mouth open, reportedly to trash talk Kenny. Muhammad described it as a dull ache. Certainly it could have been aggravated through the remainder of the bout, but they were not touching the left side of Ali's face between rounds after this, and he was protecting that side of his face for the remainder of their first match.:

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Off topic, but it's kind of funny what a good jabber Foreman was, when he actually used it. He was good enough to make it the basis of his entire game, but didn't. And getting hit by his jab was probably more like getting hit by the average HW's right. Just seems a bit odd to not work off a superb jab if you've got one.

 

He used it to great effect against Frazier and also against Chuvalo.. It actually pushed 215 lbs Frazier back. Something which hadn't happened too often even from power punches from other fighters. Just freakish power in it.

 

When Ali started, he was 12 years old and weighed 98 pounds. He wasn't always the taller guy, and we see him bring out his amateur playbook with Blue Lewis, going underneath and inside, to the body and head. He didn't go underneath or duck much, but he could and did with Lewis, Bugner and in ducking Norton's overhand right in their second bout. Norton, Holmes, Foreman, Lyle, Shavers, Mathis, Sr. and Frazier were always heavyweights and took up boxing when physically mature. Among Ali's few opponents who were not always HWs were Patterson, friend and stablemate Ellis, Jerry Quarry and Leon were among the exceptions.

Sonny Liston's trainers wanted him to go over the top with his right to get to Ali in Lewiston, but Sonny simply didn't have the musculoskeletal structure to allow for this. Norton, on the other hand, couldn't throw a straight right to save his life, and needed to reposition for unloading his deadly right uppercut. But his overhand right was sufficient for giving an unprepared Ali fits in their first match. Unlike Liston, Ken had excellent hand speed, and was highly intelligent, also very well educated by the standards of his era. But during Ali's second reign, only Frazier in Manila and then Leon truly threw caution to the wind in going after the GOAT.

Based on review of the footage, combined with Ferdie Pacheco's commentary, I do believe the fracture occurred in round two, and was probably aggravated late in their bout. It wouldn't be the first or last time a competitor soldiered on after such an injury. Hell, Jim Jeffries couldn't use his injured and vaunted left effectively in his 25 round title match with Tom Sharkey, but did ridiculous damage to the left side of Sailor Tom's face and body with his right alone. Primo Carnera had his ankle so severely sprained from Max Baer's first KD in the opening round that he needed to be hospitalized, yet he courageously soldiered on for 11 rounds, and may have been complaining at the end about being fouled instead of conceding the title. And Eddie Machen's deadly right was so badly injured in training that he was confined to the use of his left alone for his 12 rounds with Liston.

Ali said it was a dull ache, not excruciating, and he did have a very high pain tolerance. Lasting as long as he did with Holmes while so severely impaired with his foolish Thyrolar overdose is insane. (For his part, Larry admitted in his autobiography that while Muhammad was extremely strong in the clinches back when they were sparring for Kinshasa, he was very weak in those clinches for their actual bout. Berbick said his strength was back in the Bahamas, as Muhammad used clinches to hold the flailing Trevor at arm's length. No question that if Ali had continued taking Thyrolar as prescribed, he'd have gone the distance with Holmes.)

 

Norton bigger than Ali.

 

George keyed his jab in winning Olympic Gold. So did Frazier four years earlier when his left thumb was fractured. (Frazier's hook was gone by the time he attempted a comeback in Chicago with Jumbo Cummings, but he was still much the better boxer with vastly superior hand speed and quick sidesteps. He drew on the strength of his jab and cross in what was a good fight which brought applause from a pleased crowd at the final bell.)

Tex Cobb's best punch was a heavy jab. And check out how Cooney used his to dwarf the Foreman sized Dino Denis before hooking off it to end their match.

Foreman really knocked back Chuvalo's head with the jab once he had the Canadian stunned.

Frazier had an underrated jab which he used to great effect i his rematch with Jerry Quarry. And when Earnie Shavers entered Henry Clark I in Paris with a bruised right hand, he jabbed Clark silly, cutting and closing Clark's right eye in producing a very skillful boxing exhibition (stunning rookie color analyst Larry Merchant into virtual silence).

 

Liston's ring IQ was much much better than Norton's.... like it's not even particularly close or up for debate. Norton couldn't make adjustments on the fly like Liston did against Williams and Machen.

The one time, he actually did try to make adjustments against Shavers, he failed miserably and was bombed out within a round.