Is there any scenario in which Patterson beats any prime version of Liston?

I can make an argument that even though he was older, Floyd was a better fighter at that point in time than he was as champion.

 

Sure if instead of joining the Nation of Islam Cassius Clay decides instead to change his name to Floyd Patterson.

 

I wouldn’t disagree with that at all. The level of protection Cus exercised was a disservice to Patterson and hindered his development - which is exactly why Floyd parted ways with D’Amato after the Liston fights.

Floyd also had to set on building (rebuilding?) his own confidence - since it wouldn’t have helped to know that his own Mngr/Trainer wasn’t as confident in Floyd as he should’ve been.

 

From the standpoint of a biographer or a historian the life story of Sonny Liston is so rich that not even the Nick Tosches book could do more than penetrate the surface. Liston's Hollywood connections, for example, is a subject we know little about. We know that Sammy Davis and Doris Day were his friends. Sammy was at the pinnacle of his career and Day was by then a budding television star. Both might have provided connections to Hollywood producers. But he was so awful on screen -- in the movie "Head" and in the Braniff commercial with Andy Warhol, to name two examples -- that there was no way he could have capitalized. He couldn't even throw a fight convincingly.

 

My theory about Patterson is that after hitting bottom with the two first-round knockout losses to Liston and the casting off of Cus, he felt a newfound freedom. His marriage was all but over. He was making trips to Sweden, he was his own boss, he could make decisions on who to fight and who he could train with. He had become an adult in every sense. And this made him a more instinctive fighter. I think one of his best wins was his 1966 annihilation of Henry Cooper. That was Floyd at his peak.

 

I generally don’t like to ***** about decisions, caca happens and you take the good with the bad, but IMO it’s quite arguable that the only losses Patterson should have on his record should be to Ingo, Liston and Ali. He’s horribly underrated if not outright disrespected here because he crapped the bed so badly against Liston plus all the knockdowns. But the man could frickin’ fight and again I think he was better in his dotage than in his youth.

 

read my lips: no way.

 

Everyone can view it differently as is their right of course - but if I interpret a decision as being very bad, I’ll mentally calculate it as a win for all other intents and purposes. Keeping it real.

Additionally, some fighters have been known to be on the better side of several dubious decisions whereas, for others, it’s the opposite.

For one example, I personally find it irksome when Norton is referred to as Paper Champion when, in my mind, he clearly beat Ali in the rubber - which should’ve put Norton 2-1 up across the 3 fights as well as winning him the title “in the ring”.

So if Floyd rightfully received the nod against Ellis he would’ve actual become the first triple HW Champ - not Ali - and if Norton rightfully received the decision in the Ali rubber, Ali might not have managed to pull off winning the title for a 3rd time.