How good was Muhammed Ali (H2H

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SonnyListon>, May 19, 2024.



Where do you rank Muhammed Ali?

  1. top 1

    27 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. top 3

    12 vote(s)
    26.7%
  3. top 5

    3 vote(s)
    6.7%
  4. top 10

    1 vote(s)
    2.2%
  5. top 20

    2 vote(s)
    4.4%
  6. top 20+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I still remember watching Muhammad Ali's European Tour back in 1966, I watched them live on ABC's Wide World Of Sports on those Saturday afternoons, Ali was a like a phenomena that was rarely seen back then, heavyweights were like those toys, Rockem Sockem Robots from the 1960's. Ali danced around them for 15 rounds if he had to, he had incredible stamina, great footwork, catlike reflexes and timing. He did not lay on the ropes as he did in the FOTC in March 1971 against Joe Frazier, I saw the first Chuvalo bout in March 1966 from Canada, the rematch with Henry Cooper in May 1966, no knockdown in that fight, the blowout of Brian London in August 1966 and lastly the title defense against Karl Mildenberger on Sept 10 1966, Ali stopped Mildenberger by TKO 12, in Frankfurt, Germany. Ali was a fighting champion. Ali in his comeback after a 43 month exile became human, he was very vulnerable to his opponents like Frazier, Bonavena and Quarry.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2024
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  2. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Holmes needs a history lesson
     
  3. PRW94

    PRW94 Active Member Full Member

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    GOAT. But he would not go undefeated in extended series with some of the contenders for that label.
     
  4. PRW94

    PRW94 Active Member Full Member

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    He wasn’t Superman after the comeback but I don’t think he looked all THAT vulnerable against Bonavena and Quarry. Quarry managed a couple of evens in six-plus rounds plus Ali was up by 10 rounds on one card and comfortably ahead on the others before he ruined Oscar and knocked him out for what I believe was the only time in his career with one of the prettiest left hooks (set up by a head fake for the ages) you will ever see.
     
  5. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    If you have prime Ali outside your top 3, you're smoking beer.
     
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  6. Barrf

    Barrf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think they also have different types of losses. Lewis would probably blast out Norton and Frazier, who are two of the guys I'd bet on to give prime Ali the most issues. But, I mean, McCall, Rahman? Ali is not getting randomly chinned by mediocre-ish fighters.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2024
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  7. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    People who know, who’ve been there, will tell you boxing is 90% mental. (Well Tyson Fury is 100% mental but that’s a different definition of the word, haha.)

    All things being equal, or close to equal, it’s the psychology and fortitude of ‘how much are you willing to wade through to win this fight, can you bring the other guy to his breaking point before he gets you to yours’ and more. (And that breaking point may be fatigue, it may be frustration for not being able to get an opponent out of there, it may be taking his best shut and mugging and coming right back at him, it may be 1,000 things … but everybody has a breaking point).

    Now if you’ve got a supreme talent against a beginner or someone not in shape or just not very good, you don’t really get to the mental part. But there’s a reason good managers want to get their guy in with someone who can take them the distance earlier in their career, so they learn to keep working and winning rounds when the other guy doesn’t fall down and go boom. It’s mental. There’s also the mental part of making adjustments when Plan A doesn’t work or someone hurts/breaks a hand or gets a cut (hi Mike Tyson) or something else doesn’t go the way they wanted it to or planned for it to … maybe the guy they figured was going to come straight at them is on his toes boxing in circles or vice versa, whatever.

    Ali was the absolute best I ever saw at the mental game. He would work up opponents into a lather figuring (a) they want to get at him so bad they get over anxious and make mistakes and (b) even with scary guys like Joe Frazier and George Foreman he wanted them coming as hard as they could at their absolute best because it would force him to train hard enough to be ready for it and it would bring out the best in him.

    There’s a supreme confidence about him. Doing an Ali shuffle when a ham-and-eager or journeyman is in front of you might get a pop out of the crowd, but doing it against a peak Joe Frazier trying to take your head off is insane. But Ali would rise his level even higher more often than not. He would act like a life-and-death fight was a walk in the park, and that’s tough to deal with when you’re huffing and puffing to keep up with him and he’s laughing it off.

    This is why I figure Ali handles many of the guys who might in their own way be on his level physically (say Mike Tyson), because he showed time and again that he could find a crack in their mental facade and use it to bring down the whole dam.
     
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  8. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    I'm reading this and thinking about Ali gingerly rubbing Earnie Shavers' head like it was a ten-year old who just had a good baseball game.
    "Good job, little man!"
    "Thanks, dad!"

    There'll never be another SOB like him.
     
  9. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, But there has been controversy following the bout against Oscar Bonavena, like the three knockdown rule, man in the media had Bonavena ahead going into the 15 th round, a peak 1967 Ali would have been comfortably ahead on the judges scorecards going into the 15th round. As a matter of fact, Ali and Bonavena had actually signed to fight on May 27 1967 in Tokyo, Japan, and also a rematch with Floyd Patterson for a title defense in April 1967, but neither fight panned out as Ali refused military induction on April 28 1967, he was fingerprinted by the FBI, and indicted for Draft Evasion, Ali was stripped of his boxing license and title. Ali was convicted in Federal Court of Draft Evasion on June 20 1967, sentenced to 5 years imprisonment, fined $10,000.00. Even Howard Cosell, who commentated at the Dec 7 1970 fight with Bonavena stated that Ali looked like he was struggling against Oscar, that Ali was not the same as before the forced 43 month exile from boxing. Maybe nice left hook but to me, Ali looked like he was struggling, his legs from 1964-1967 were long gone, so was his timing, reflexes, and unending stamina, 43 months away from boxing will do that to any fighter.
     
  10. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jimmy Ellis managed to knock down Oscar Bonavena too in Dec 1967 enroute to a unanimous 15 round decision.
     
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  11. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Fear is a primary emotion. When you see a bear you become afraid. How one reacts to fear tells a lot about a person. I'm sure some of those fighters scared him.
     
  12. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Only if the Bear is a Big Ugly Bear Named Sonny Liston, Growl ! Ha Ha.
     
  13. PRW94

    PRW94 Active Member Full Member

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    TY for the correction.
     
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  14. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No problem buddy.
     
  15. Romero

    Romero Slapping Enthusiast Full Member

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    Larry Holmes would be mistaken.