Sweet list. My top five would be identical i reckon. Overall greatness might well see him above Monzon and Hagler when one adds his successes above 160.
Yes. He did go up to LHW after losing to Jermain Taylor and have a whole other career but he was 40 I don't hold that against him at MW.
Oh yeah. What does not help his cause is his style was not a flashy style. But a grinder and bricklayer of the highest order. Bernard really did throw hard punches going for ko's in those early defenses. He had quite a few ko's. But he had the rare ability to alter and change his style to continue winning and defending the title when he got older. How many others can pull that off? He also had another skill that is often overlooked-----he knew what to do and how to win fights.
You would honestly place him above the likes of Greb, Monzon, Robinson, and Hagler? On what basis? Resume? H2H? Achievement? Longevity? I'm just struggling to understand why people rank him so highly, his record defences are against largely unremarkable competition and his best wins are against either men who were smaller or past prime at the weight, I just don't see how can be placed so highly in a division as deep as MW when he lost to RJJ and Jermain twice. Yes, he dominated his division but it was a fairly weak division imo.
But as I have always said about fighters moving into weight classes above their own, A great fighter knows his own limitations, that applies to fighters like Carlos Monzon and Marvelous Marvin Hagler, Bernard Hopkins struggled in the light heavyweight division after attaining the World Middleweight Title, Hopkins struggled against the likes of Chad Dawson at 175 lbs. What is wrong with dominating your own division in which you are comfortable at fighting at? Monzon and Hopkins were not foolish to try to tackle the next division at 175 lbs, they both cleaned out the middleweight division a decade apart, neither were hard up for money, Monzon's management always set aside money from each of his fights to ensure a positive future when his boxing career was over, the same could be said for Hagler, as both were actors following their careers in boxing.
Actually you can make an arguement for him only having 19 successful defenses, which puts him at #2 behind Golovkin. One of his defenses was a no contest, which doesn't count. Golovkin had 20 defenses, 18 by KO.
Joppy was an average alphabet champ, promoted by Showtime. Descent fighter though, i have nothing against him. I was really impressed with Trinidads demolition job on him, as everybody else was. This was right after Trinidad did a number on Vargas too.
Sorry Rich i meant to answer this ages ago. This type discussion seems to really trigger Monzon and Hagler fans and they take it almost as an insult. Firstly lets differentiate Hagler and Monzon because one was a smaller type middleweight while the other one was a big middleweight who would have in theory merged into 175 a lot better than Hagler. It's all fine that these guys were long term middleweights but it's also, if not a knock against them, a plus over them for others that did have the desire and ambition to scale the weights and seek greatness at higher levels.....with everything taken into account and balanced out of course. There's no reason not to toot the horn of guys that did take that risk and achieve good to great things at higher weights and it adds to their resume. Hopkins dominated Middleweight forever before moving up and whooping the number one light heavyweight in the world. I'm pretty sure he holds the record for middleweight defenses or thereabouts. Roberto Duran dominated 135 forever as well before moving up and making a top 10 ATG fighter of himself. As for a great fighter knowing his limitations, dozens and dozens of great fighters didn't. Does this make them less great? Ali, Holmes and an infinite amount of others didn't stop boxing when limitations dictated they should have. Some boxers have lost moving up but actually added to their legend if anything. Lupe Pintor taking on Wilfredo Gomez and giving him a red hot go would be just one example. Daring to ignore the odds and venture into the great unknown is a greatness in itself, a risk, a gamble, a belief in oneself, a special chase for glory. It need not be about money because many times it simply isn't. Pulling it off is enormous and many boxers have been elevated greatly by such feats. Without it we don't see great historical wins such as SRL over Hagler, Spinks over Holmes, Duran over SRL, Duran over Barkley, Usyk over Fury and dozens more. There's plenty in recent boxing as well as guys like Mayweather and Pac scaled the weights and it's going on as i type with Inoue and Crawford among others. The vast majority of most peoples top 30's are filled with guys who scaled the weights. As for Hopkins struggling against Dawson, that's more than half a decade after he moved up. When he first moved up he beat the number #1 light heavyweight in the world, not only beat him but schooled him, a guy that was on the fringe of top 10 P4P. This put Hopkins back in the top 10 P4P 18 years into his career. After this he beat the #2 P4P fighter even if admittedly at a catchweight. He then took Calze down to the wire. Years later he again beat the worlds #1 rated light heavyweight. So Hopkins move up from middleweight was enormously successful in reality. Context makes it even better. Monzon himself actually stated a couple of times he was looking at moving up and fighting Foster so it's not as if he didn't publically entertain the idea. He would have been a heavy underdog but stranger things have happened in boxing. It would have been a no lose situation in some ways.
Everybody has a right to their opinions, yours is highly respected by me. But do you remember a great fighter by the name of Carlos Zarate in Oct 1978? He was great at 118 lbs, he moved up to 122lbs against WBC Champion Wilfredo Bazooka Gomez, he got demolished after posting nearly all knockouts as Bantamweight champ. It is a risk but in my opinion, it does not make a fighter a greater fighter. Look at Roberto Duran, after 7 years of dominating the lightweights as champion and 12 title defenses he moved up to 147 lbs, won the WBC Welterweight Title from Sugar Ray Leonard in 15 rounds on points in June 1980, but failed miserably in the Nov 1980 rematch, he quit. His move up to 160 lbs was a huge mistake, he did not take his punch with him that well, he got beat by bigger guys, in wrestling he would have become a Jobber, a stepping stone. As for King Carlos Monzon, did you know the story behind John Conteh's stripping of his WBC Light Heavyweight title in May 1977? Conteh was to defend against WBC no.1 undefeated contender Miguel Angel Cuello in Monte Carlo, Monaco, the winner if it was Conteh, he was to defend against World Middleweight Champion Carlos Monzon, this after Monzon defended his title in a rematch against Rodrigo Valdes in Monaco on July 30 1977, Conteh refused to go thru with the Cuello bout and was stripped. Cuello met and fought Jesse Burnett, whom he stopped in the 9th round to become new WBC Champion. If a fighter moves up because he cannot make weight, it is understandable but sometimes looking for bigger game could prove costly, if you lose, you tarnished a potential legacy. People always remember a winner, they tend to forget losers.
