Who was better, the Louis that Schmeling beat or the Ali that Frazier beat?

The Ali that Frazier beat was rusty and hadn't reached his 2nd stride with wins over high quality opponents such as Norton, Foreman, etc. Nor was he the young Clay who dazzled crowd with his fancy footwork and flurries frustrating fighters such as Folley or Floyd. But he was still a damn good fighter who made short work of Quarry and who manage to become the only man to KO the rugged Ringo Bonavaena. H2H, that obviously wasn't the best version of Ali, but he was in good shape, confident, fast, and had tremendous fighting spirit.

The Louis who fought Schmeling was a boxer-puncher dynamo with great power, speed, technique, etc. Schmeling had found his Achilles heel and focused on that throughout the match. Louis, unlike Ali, has destroyed some fighters who were seasoned veterans and arguably more skilled overall than the ones Ali beat. Facing the likes of Uzcudin, Baer, Carnera, ans Levinsky at just 21 and winning all these fights with relative ease showed just how skilled and mature Louis was at the time. His weakness of dropping the left hand was something even most of the expert writers at the time had not picked up on so all credit goes to Schmeling for not only noticing it, but winning by punishing that mistake.



So it's a pretty close comparison. Ali was still Ali and one hell of a boxer even when rusty and coming off a layoff. Nobody in history would have an easy night even with that version of Ali, and very few would win. But I'm going to have to go with the Louis Schmeling beat. He was a more complete fighter at the time, was more active, had beaten better more recent opponents, etc.

 

I’d pick Ali as well, more experienced & to run Frazier that close, & show that kind of speed, durability & endurance, is basically all but a win in my book.

I reckon we end up in a severe minority here, though. The Ali industry would have you believe the Ali that Frazier beat was rolled out in a wheelchair after thirty years of inactivity.

 

I agree. I'm not going to say he was prime, but he still put on one of his best career performances even if it was a losing effort. He looked far better than he did in any of the Norton fights imo with the possible exception of the second. I don't see any version of Norton beating this Ali.

 

While I agree with you, Muhammad Ali coming off of a 43 month layoff was missing some key pieces to the puzzle that he had posed to his 1965-1967 challengers, his legs were gone, so were his reflexes, his timing was far off, and he no longer had his youthful stamina, as he now tired against the likes of Oscar Bonavena and Joe Frazier, which we may never know because we never saw prime Ali because of the layoff, we did however see peak Ali.

 

Lol um Max was a 180 pound guy who was knocked out various times before he faced Louis. Frazier was undefeated and the only lost to 2 people in his career period. Ali, and Foreman. Ali was way better than Louis. Louis only looked good because of his extremely limited competition

 

Ali,,,

 

Ali.
Even with all the rust and loss because the forced exile, FOTC Ali was close to peak level, and he was more experienced.

The Louis who battled Schmelling 1 was still an up and coming youngblood who was not 100% focused and disciplined.

Furthermore, we need to consider whom they fought:
Frazier was an ATG who beat Ali in a quite even struggle.

As much as I like Schmelling, he is not in the same level than Frazier. Schmelling was a very good, smart fighter who studied Louis' weak points and used that knowledge to slap him around. No doubt a great performance, but still not at the same level than FOTC Frazier.

 

I will note that even though his hand was raised, Frazier had the ever loving dog crap beaten out of him that night to the point where aside from Manila, where he was fueled by hatred, he was never really the same again.

 

Louis. By an eyelash. And I might change my mind 5 minutes from now.

 

Perhaps worthy of consideration.

In their own time, who, among their contemporaries, would’ve beaten them otherwise, on the respective nights in question?

I might answer no one.

But Louis was KO’d in his case in point and Ali (imo) ran Joe very close over the full 15 rounds.

Max was an older but savvy contender and Frazier was a World Champ at the peak of his own powers.

Then we might opt for more direct comparison and look at H2H - ‘36 Louis vs ‘71 Ali?

Then mix and match: ‘36 Louis vs ‘71 Frazier and ‘71 Ali vs ‘36 Schmeling?

All in all, maybe Ali gets the nod as being “better” (exact definition for same in this case?) but it’s not an easy comparison and a very good question to think upon.

 

Hard to say given that I can see those versions of those two guys beating the other’s conqueror. I think Ali beats 1936 Schmeling while Louis beats 1971 Frazier. So I’m not totally sure

 

It’s a bit of a conundrum comparing ‘71 Ali to versions of himself several years later.

On one hand, ‘71 Ali was rusty and not as well conditioned (to his “as and when” full potential) as he was later in the piece.

BUT, ‘71 Ali was also subject to further ageing and naturally accrued wear/tear as the years passed - and that includes the wear/tear from the FOTC itself as well as his extremely active comeback schedule otherwise.

Of course, Ali came out of the FOTC better off than Frazier but that obviously still leaves a lot of room for damage - and it likely still took from Ali in some measure.

Ali was likely the fittest he ever was in the 70s through the Frazier/Norton rematches and Foreman fight -

But then, deteriorations otherwise, from ‘71 to ‘74 might also have to be accounted for a net sum which, depending on different view points, might or might not exceed the ‘71 version.

I will say, for mine, as well as Ali performed in the FOTC, his performance, as at the time, was still clearly marked by lack of match fitness and stamina issues from the just prior to the mid rounds and until the end of the fight.

 

Ali. More dimensions, more levels. Frazier was leagues better than Schmeling, and that's what it took to beat that version of Ali.