Did Harry Wills deserve a shot at Dempsey, Or?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by TBI, Aug 12, 2024.


  1. TBI

    TBI Active Member Full Member

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    Ot was it racism/politics of the day that prevented the fight? Was it that nobody wanted another black world heavyweight champ after Johnson (potentially)? Was it simply that Wills didn't earn it? Who did dempsey fight instead that was worthy?

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2024
  2. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I won’t go down the rabbit hole of getting into an endless argument about whether or not Dempsey ducked Harry Wills. All I Will say is “ yes.” Harry Wills was plenty good enough to deserve a shot at his title and also “ yes “ I think the color of his skin played a part in that not happening.
     
  3. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jack Dempsey was not the roadblock to Wills receiving his shot - Jack Johnson was.
     
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  4. TBI

    TBI Active Member Full Member

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    Thanks for the replies so far...
     
  5. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Yes, Wills was by far the best challenger for at least 6 years of Dempsey's title reign.

    Dempsey's reign will forever have an asterisk attached to it.
     
  6. bolo specialist

    bolo specialist Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Wills firmly established himself as the consensus #1 contender when he beat fellow top contender Fulton in 1920 & never really lost that standing until his defeat by Sharkey in 1926.

    The Associated Press compiled a timeline of some (though not all) of the efforts to make a Dempsey-Wills fight in the middle of this page. You can decide for yourself how much fault lies where.

    I do believe there was a genuine effort to make the fight in '22 & '23, but after several venues passed up on a mixed race title fight, Dempsey's people became indifferent & looked for challengers elsewhere, then just stopped looking for challengers altogether during his "celebrity phase." From '24 through '26, there was ample opportunity for Dempsey's people to make the fight w/o much resistance (& w/ general support from the public), & that's where the most fault lies w/ Dempsey & tarnishes his legacy IMO.
     
  7. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This debate and discussion is covered extensively in my Dempsey books, the third of which has just been released.
     
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  8. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    To my understanding there's even some polls from papers that suggests fans, regardless of how racist, wanted the fight.

    I'm fairly convinced the fella who fought a black guy and lost and never fought another one was the issue.
     
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  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    He deserved a title shot beyond any shadow of a doubt.

    The only thing that we might debate, is whose fault it was that he didn't get one.
     
  10. Shay Sonya

    Shay Sonya The REAL Wonder Woman! Full Member

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    Great! I have the first two and am getting this one.
     
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  11. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes. He actually got one and Dempsey pulled out and Wills fought Firpo instead. The NYSAC ordered Dempsey to fight Wills making him a proto "mandatory". Other than Tunney who was double campaigning at LHW/HW there were really no compelling title contenders as Dempsey had otherwise cleaned out the division.

    With the modern system in place there is no doubt Wills would have been alphabet champ in the 24-26 period when Dempsey didn't fight. Part of why he didn't(opposed to Langford) is Dempsey had otherwise cleaned out the division and Wills biggest feat KO'ing Fulton was something Dempsey had also done.

    After gaining his status as number 1 contender Wills beat Firpo who Dempsey beat, Weinart a contender from the 10s who got that fight by beating Firpo and Floyd Johnson really wouldn't have deserved a shot at that time. Jack Sharkey was more of a prospect who'd lost to Weinart. There was really no one else so there was little Wills could do to further enhance his status and undermine Dempseys. When Tunney entered the picture he got his shot by beating Gibbons who Dempsey had also beaten. If Dempsey had fought Wills these would have been the sort of fights Dempsey would have fought before facing Tunney if he fought at all.

    Another reason Wills wasn't crowned is at this stage just about every lineal HW champ besides Tommy Burns had done the same thing where they went inactive for several years. So at this point it was more normalized. After this it mostly wouldn't happen again until Tyson Fury.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2024
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  12. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If the NYSAC wanted Dempsey to fight Wills and US segregationists were the main institutional force opposed to having another black champion its hard to blame the color barrier for Wills situation. Its pretty squarly Dempseys fault. He pulled out of a fight with Wills then didn't fight for 2 years. Whatever Dempseys motivations he is the one responsible. If Dempsey fought Wills and lost Wills would have been champ. Plain and simple. Dempsey refused to fight Wills almost the entire period he was number 1 contender then Tunney got the belt a few weeks before Wills lost.

    During this period Wills fought only white men fought in NY and NJ and the tickets for his events read "Heavyweight championship contenders of the world". No one at this specific time was holding Wills back except Dempsey.

    A lot of bad history has been told to try and cast Jack Johnson as the Jackie Robinson of boxing. Unlike in MLB, NFL etc boxing was an international sport at a time before US hegemony and the US couldn't completly segregate it or ban black men from fighting for titles unilateraly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2024
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  13. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Harry Wills was the number 1 contender for 6 years. Your telling me that though that time, Dempsey could not have fit that fight at all in the 6 years?? I think the main reason the fight did not happen was Wills was black and the excuse of another Jack Johnson. The powers that be did their best to make sure there was never other black heavyweight champ. and when Louis got his chance, it really came down to him or a Nazi and ten percent of Louis's purse for the next ten years.
     
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  14. Terror

    Terror free smoke Full Member

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    This