Oleksandr Usyk Versus Mike Tyson

Tyson had already declined significantly by Tokyo. For me he is the heavyweight with the shortest 'prime'.

 

Tyson stops Usyk with a crippling bodyshot

 

If his cruiser opponents averaged 10 pounds lighter than Tyson that would still put them closer to Tyson's weight (218) than literally everybody Usyk has fought at heavyweight, Witherspoon (24 pounds), Chisora (37 pounds), Joshua (22, 26 pounds), Dubois (15 pounds) and Fury (44 pounds). He'd also be closer in terms of height and reach. It seems silly that your quibbling over 10 pounds while ignoring the much bigger weight discrepancy between Mike and Usyk's heavyweight opponents. Larry Holmes at best was around 210 and thats considered one of Tyson's best wins. He weighed more vs Tyson due to being out of shape as did Tony Tubbs who in shape would be around 210, 215 probably. I'd assume Tyson wouldn't be significantly diminished by an 18 pound cut given they happen with some frequency and as you go up in weight its a much smaller percentage body weight. It should be easier for Tyson to cut 18 pounds than Crawford given its a far lower percentage of his total weight.

A good way to test that would be to compare fighters performances when they cut weight to when they don't. We have plenty of examples of fighters having over the limit matches where they don't cut any weight which gives you a basis for comparison for fights when they rehydrate.

 

If you review your own posts, you'll find that the difference we are discussing between the initial, unresearched claims about Usyk's opponents' in-ring weights at cruiserweights and their real in-ring weights is, in actuality, around 20 pounds. Again, it was you who said cruiserweights can and typically weigh above 220 pounds. You were then shown otherwise. No one is denying that Usyk's cruiserweight opponents are closer in weight to Tyson than Tyson is to the heavyweights Usyk fought. Even if the cruiserweights gained no weight at all, everyone can tell 200 is closer to 218 than it is to 240.

Given the above, I'll let you decide whether or not you consider 20 pounds a quibble. If it is a quibble, you should have no problem with what the board considers some of the most egregious fight night weight gains in the modern era; you must similarly classify cases such as Gatti against Gamache and Chavez Jr. against Zbik as mere quibbles too.

This is a terribly misguided assumption, to be honest. In this part of your post, you've exhibited no grasp of nuance, no regard for how a fighter's weight may increase over time, and most importantly, you've failed to understand the difference between lower-weight boxing and cruiserweight boxing.

In the first sentence alone there are two factually incorrect points: you have not proven, for one, that 18-pound weight gains occur at cruiserweight, and, even if they did, this would not be "much smaller percentage body weight" because you are then working with a larger base.

Secondly, apart from cruiserweights, fighters cut LESS weight for over-the-limit matches, not none. Cruiserweights will also oftentimes GAIN weight to compete in the higher weight class; they don't simply refrain from cutting, as you suggest.

Lastly, even if we didn't take a case-by-case approach for the fighters making weight, the opposing ends of the spectrum, those being cruiserweights and strawweights, are recorded to be by far the least affected by weight change. The strawweights and light flyweights I have information on gained around 3-6% of their weight, while the cruiserweights gained just 1-3%. The weight cut you are recommending for Tyson is at least triple that, by the way.

 

It's not 20 pounds though. If we say Usyks cruiser opponents averaged 206 that's a 12 pound difference, closer to 10 than 20. Whatever the exact number 208, 205, 207, 209 its almost certainly under 15, let alone 20 pounds.
If a guy is campaigning at cruiserweight and has a fight over the limit with another cruiserweight or an unranked heavyweight he probably wouldn't bother bulking up because he has no plans to stay at the weight class and isn't facing a bigger capable opponent.

Breidis was 203 3/4 vs Hubert 209 1/2
Gassiev 207 vs Moore 214 1/2
Huck 209 1/2 vs Povetkin 229 1/4
Glowacki 202 vs Cunningham 204 (at cruiser, but rehydration weights given)
Venter 217 1/4 vs Moyo 243 1/4

If Usyks cruiserweight opponents are closer in size to Tyson than his heavyweight opponents that would seem to destroy the argument that we have to limit our focus to heavyweight.

 

You seem to struggle following the course of the thread. You are now comparing rehydration weights with Tyson's weight of 218, when earlier you said cruisers were OVER 220. That puts these hypothetical cruiserweights firmly in a category above Tyson.

I never said Usyk's opponents at the lower weight should be thrown out. It is FACT, however, that all of them were smaller than Tyson, who, himself, was often smaller than his foes.

 

Sure. It's also a fact that he was knocked out by a Holyfield weighing 7 pounds less than him and is routinely picked to lose to Muhammad Ali who in the 1960s was well under 220 (212 3/4 or less for every fight but Chuvalo). Breidis would probably be among Tyson's top wins despite his size. What is Tyson's best win exactly? A 38 year old Holmes? Former light heavy Spinks? Maybe Tucker who got a gift decision against 5'9 1/2 Orlin Norris? Ruddock who never beat anyone in the top 10?

At heavyweight you can stay in the rankings for years without actually proving yourself like Deontay Wilder. Many of Tyson's wins at heavyweight are over guys with extremely thin credentials.. Guys who campaigned there for years without actually fighting and beating other top contenders.

 

Holyfield was bulked up on PEDs and benchpressing 360 pounds for reps he was very strong. And Holyfield is also considered an ATG with one of the strongest resumes of any Heavyweight based on how many notable opponents he fought.

Tyson is picked to lose to Ali based on styles and the fact Ali is an ATG and rates as one of the best H2H fighters of all time at Heavyweight. Nothing to do with weight I don't know why you’re so obsessed with weight.

Again why do you keep bringing up Breidis ? I don't care if you consider him at Heavyweight. He's fighting in a weightclass with a limit and the limit is under 200 pounds hence rating Breidis in a fantasy scenario at Heavyweight when he's had 0 fights in the division is baffling.

Holmes & Spinks had over 100 fights between them with over 30 championship fights and were only ever stopped in their careers once by Tyson. The way you discredit those wins like they are nothing is also absolutely baffling.

Tyson beat 8 ranked fighters during his reign how many other Heavyweights beat 8 ranked fighters in just 4 years ? Tyson unified and cleaned up the division and it was one of the most impressive reigns of all time.

 

Swift body shot followed by a swift uppercut with the same hand? Yeah, that is one hella combination. I'm not sure that Fury could replicate that, even on a heavybag, anywhere near approaching that speed.

 

i'm curious -- do you know what Usyk was coming in to the ring as when he fought at CW? Going off visual comparisons, I'm going to guess around 215. He's definitely not as lean now at 225 as he was at CW.

 

I put up pics of two of his fights ages ago. 206 and 208 from memory.

 

You're all over the place. If you want to abandon the size argument you made, then you can find a poster to go into other considerations, like quality of opponents faced. These are two, different things.

Frankly, I am losing interest engaging with you since you show no knowledge of the sport beyond half-baked guesses based on regurgitated misinformation. I was responding specifically to the baseless line of argumentation that Briedis, Gassiev, Huck, etc. were as big or even bigger than Tyson. The people refuting you came with facts, you came with assumptions.

 

He only fought on HBO on two occasions, as I recall. They had him as 208 for Mchunu, and then 207 for Hunter.

 

Fight night weights:

Usyk 207lbs vs Hunter 197.5lbs -

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Usyk 208lbs vs Mchunu 206lbs -

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1988 Tyson would be my choice.