Who was the best of the rest in the Holmes era?

Agree with Berbick. We don't seem to have footage of his one punch loss to Mercado after Larry became Champion, which helps Trevor's status immensely. And his only goal with Holmes was to last the Championship Distance, ceding all 15 rounds in the process on my card, and judge Joe Swessel's official 150-135 card. I knew in advance exactly what Berbick would do against Larry, stay low, keep his head down, and advance slowly, like Godoy did in his first bout with Louis. Holmes-Berbick wasn't remotely competitive.

In addition, a completely shot and fat 39 y/o Ali was FAR more competitive against Berbick in the Bahamas than John Tate had been in Montreal. Additionally, Berbick was decked in a loss to Snipes and sleep walked through a decision loss to CW Champion S. T. Gordon while the Assassin was HW Champion. He also drew with Leroy Caldwell.

HZ, the reason I can't go along with Tucker is that in his one big stoppage win over Douglas, Buster was dominating with his jab until the very abrupt turn around and stoppage. On my card, Douglas had it won going into round ten. Having said that, we really don't know what might've happened if Tony had gone into Tyson with a healthy right, instead of a fractured one. As Gene Tunney said, EVERYBODY gets injured during training. The question is whether or not that injury changes the outcome. For Larry Holmes, his injured left did not change the outcome against Norton, but I've opined many times that Machen's injured right was severe enough to cost him the win over Liston, with me citing how a single filmed right from Eddie to the body of big Nino Valdes dropped the Cuban for a full count. Machen's right was an extremely powerful weapon, and he didn't have it for Liston..

Finally, as you've already read, I consider what they did while Larry was Champion, and Tucker didn't really make an impact until Tyson was Champion. TNT's best win during the earlier reign of Holmes was over a very much past it Jimmy Young, his best stoppage win over the uber rugged Eddie "Animal" Lopez, but this doesn't even measure up to the resume Marvis had with wins over Broad and Bugner. (Joe was on a pretty good four bout streak at the time, including a one punch over Denis, not an easy guy to beat in that way. Tillis, Bey, Page and Bonecrusher were among Bugner's future victims. The 6'0" 200 pound Marvis proved pretty adept against super heavyweights Broad, Bugner, Bonecrusher, Ribalta, was the third after Cooney and Bruno to beat Philipp Brown in his career finale, he also decisioned, and only lost to a prime Holmes and Tyson before winning his final three bouts. I don't hold Tyson against Marvis as Mike beat a number of contenders the same way. Although Marvis was never a true contender, he ultimately proved to be a pretty competent HW.)

 

Well, Earnie did essentially end Norton's contention in a single round, distinguished himself against Ali in a situation where many thought he should have won the Title (kids at my school the next morning who watched it certainly thought so), this was an era where he won twice over ten rounds, once with a bruised right hand by out boxing and out maneuvering a master boxer with his long jab and surprising skill, nobody ever beat the never floored Henry Clark like he did in their two round Yankee Stadium rematch (among the other guys who couldn't deck Clark were Liston, Norton, Folley, Machen, O'Halloran 2X, Leotis, Merritt, Mac Foster, Howard KO Smith, Mercado, and Clark won some of those bouts).

Only Ali and Holmes beat him between Lyle in September 1975 and Mercado after Holmes II, Bernardo coming off the deck to stop Earnie in March 1980. For Shavers, this was a 10-3 streak over five years. Holmes I was one of Larry's three best career performances (I also rate Cooney and Cobb in 1982 for Holmes), and Earnie ruined the GOAT for life (something Larry has asserted on camera in no uncertain terms-it wasn't Frazier but Shavers who inflicted the progressive brain damage responsible for Muhammad being no longer among the living).

He came off the deck to stop the deadly Jeff Sims, forced Mercado and Holmes to come off the deck to beat him, before Larry was Champion, he uniquely one punched the durable Jimmy Ellis, forced Lyle to come off the floor, was the only one to ever floor Jimmy Young, doing it twice, uniquely knocked out the huge and durable Tiger Williams, produced the fastest stoppage Bugner ever sustained (dropping Joe in one round and Bugner credited Earnie as easily the hardest puncher he ever faced, like everybody except Jerry Quarry, who originally didn't think Shavers ever hit himj, and Ellis, who never knew what hit him.)

Where do I rate Earnie's best? Depends on who else he beats. I can't see Berbick surviving him if Trevor couldn't survive Mercado, Tyson and get decked by Snipes. I think the dancing and jabbing Witherspoon of Holmes could avoid the bombs from Shavers, but Bonecrusher-Spoon is very troubling for me there, Earnie at his best does out box and outmaneuver Cobb if he brings out the Clark I cutie playbook, of paces himself like he did with Tiger Williams and Ali, I don't see Mercado surviving Shavers in 1978 or early 1979, no version of Norton stands a chance against Earnie, but I think Tucker, Tubbs and Page pull it off. I think Coetzee can successfully avoid him until Gerrie gasses him and brings over his Bionic Right, Bonecrusher was strong enough, durable enough, extremely well conditioned at 227 pounds, smart enough, he could get off the deck to last many rounds, and his poweful clinching would be an effective wearing tactic on the clinch vulnerable Shavers.

Cooney, Pinklon and Tate. Gerry will get hit, and Earnie's right was longer than Cooney's hook. Gerry will need to dwarf Shavers the way he dwarfed the 6'3" Dino Denis with his pumping jab. Pinklon was a great left handed bandit, but he didn't have what Malcom "Flash" Gordon defined as class, "the ability to move and deploy the jab." Thomas wasn't really a mover. As good as he was, he never met a puncher like Shavers. I don't think styles favors him here. One didn't stand in front of Earnie. Tate did knock out Mercado, Knoetze, and decisioned Coetzee. When Big John knew in advance he was dealing with a deadly puncher, he came in well prepared. This would pay off with Shavers. Tate was big enough, mobile enough and smart enough to stay away from Earnie until Shavers gassed. For this reason, I think he'd have done well against Cooney, and it almost happened. I believe that would've revived Tate's career.



People didn't WANT to face the Acorn except for Holmes, but Larry, in my opinion, was a top three ATG HW at the time.

 

Berbick is not my pick, but you gave me a new perspective on him.

It is sometimes useful to get a perspective on a fighter, from someone who knows the era a bit better.

 

I’d be interested to know how you can be so sure Shavers did damage to Ali rather than Frazier? That seems unknowable to me, but one guy hit Ali an awful lot more than the other, for what it’s worth.

You’re obviously familiar with Shavers, so I don’t need to run you down all his deficiencies or worst performances or results. They weight heavier with me than his highlights, suffice to say. A (nearly) one-armed fighter with chin, endurance, delivery & footwork issues.

 

Most of Joe's punishment was to the body. Ali then let himself go physically for Coopman,and the lightly regarded and negative boxing Jimmy Young. Six weeks later, Ali really whipped himself into shape for the unfortunate Richard Dunn (all Ali's British challengers were utterly cursed for his being in top condition for them), and he let Dunn last long enough to demonstrate that Foreman, Norton and Frazier couldn't have beaten him when it that kind of shape and competition readiness. He was so fast and sharp for Dunn that it was obvious he'd lost nothing from Manila if in the best shape he could attain in the Spring of 1976.

Two events permanently diminished Ali. The first was his stupid foray into professional wrestling IN JAPAN, with the already notoriously cheap shooting Antonio Inoki. Years before, Inoki tried to hurt Bruno Sammartino with a leg lock in a Tokyo tag team match (something Shohei Baba would have never tried with his close friend Bruno), but Sammartino powered out of it, Inoki quickly tagged out, then wisely avoided Bruno for the rest of the match (and Inoki's career).

Incidentally, boxing fan Sammartino was going to retire after doing an extremely lucrative and mainstream profile job to Ali, but Stan Hansen ruined everything by slamming Bruno on his head with a botched bodyslam (which there is extant footage of in Sammartino's episode with Tom Seaver on Greatest Sports Legends). Hence, an alternative wrestler for Bruno had to be found, and unfortunately it instantly turned out to be Inoki, where if Ali HAD to go to Japan, it should've been Baba. (Ignore Wiki saying Ali-Inoki was agreed to in April 1976 while Hansen broke Sammartino's neck the following month. Sequencing was the other way around.)

What happened at Budokan? Inoki immediately drops on his back to the floor at the opening bell, and spends the next 15 rounds kicking away at Ali's extremely vital legs. When Muhammad returned home, he had to be hospitalized to have blood drained for his legs. The classy Norton visited him in the hospital, bringing flowers. What we don't know, may never know, is whether or not Ken was aware that the GOAT was on the brink of having one of his legs amputated! Ali-Inoki was on June 26. Miraculously and ridiculously, Ali defended the title against Norton just three months after the Inoki fiasco. But the GOAT would never again be able to plant his legs as needed for punching power. Alfredo Evangelista had no business being in the ring with Ali after just getting shut out by the slippery Zanon, and having never been in a bout scheduled for more than eight rounds. (This is extremely bizarre. Even Leon had gone ten rounds in his lackluster draw with LeDoux and uninspiringly close decision over Righetti. Was Leon truly the least qualified HW Title challenger ever against Ali?)

Of course this one wasn't close, but in his Ring "Best I Faced" interview, Evangelista said Snipes was the strongest and hardest puncher, Holmes had the best chin, but that Ali was tops in everything else. (Oddly, Pierre Coetzer said in his installment that conquest Evangelista had the best overall skills he ever faced. No way I can possibly buy that after watching Zanon own Alfredo for 36 minutes when just one good shot would've decked the chinny Italian stylist. In fact, I have Zanon the winner of all rounds against Jerry Quarry, prime Ken Norton, peak Larry Holmes and John L. Gardner where he kept his feet. Give Lorenzo a chin and ability to circle right, we may have to start asking some disturbing questions. Zanon's only decision loss to Lucien Rodriguez was avenged in an immediate rematch, and without seeing the Frenchman's win, I can only imagine it was due to being in Paris.)

Evangelista, who would become far more accomplished, in huge part because of facing Ali so early through the Championship Distance, became far more accomplished. (Beating Snipes in Richfield does set him apart from others of his era representing Continental Europe. Of Renaldo's 17 defeats, Alfredo is the only non American citizen to ever beat him. BTW, it was almost the far more qualified Zanon instead of neophyte Evangelista who got that title shot at Ali. Zanon had already won over 12 rounds and Ali no longer had the ability to hurt even him. Would Earnie Shavers have would up challenging Lorenzo Zanon in Milan for the World Heavyweight Championship? Best guess according to Evangelista is that Ali's speed and experience still gets the job done with a decision though.)

Ney, we all know how Ali-Shavers unfolded. Muhammad was repeatedly concussed, and you can tell during his in ring interview after that his head is still buzzing considerably, and his voice can barely be heard. Ali was much easier to hear while resting on one knee after Manila, and he was able to describe his rubber match with Frazier in great detail to Don Dunphy. He was immediately able to specify that he had doubts about being able to win during round ten, and turned around to shake Frazier's hand from a kneeling position, but simply too exhausted to rise up to greet Joe. His body wasn't too spent for him to need to be on a knee after Shavers, but he was punch drunk. (He was able to tell NBC's Dick Enberg that he was hurt in the second, ninth, tenth and final rounds, so he did remember it, but he immediately and repeatedly gave thanks to "Almighty Allah" otherwise.)

Getting upset by Leon was one thing. But in their rematch, when Ali was in the best possible condition, and as low as 217 in New Orleans, Howard Cosell repeatedly made note of how the GOAT's timing was off, how he was misfiring in a way never noticed before, and Cosell had seen enough Ali fights live going back over 15 years to identify such things. (Howard did not witness Leon I live in Las Vegas because that was broadcast by Brent Musberger and Tom Brookshier on CBS. Cosell talked about it the morning before and after in ABC's Good Morning America's NYC studio. Nor did he announce Shavers, which aired on NBC and was called by Dick Enberg with Norton and Merchant.)

Ali's timing was intact going into Shavers. It was clearly observed and noted by Cosell as lacking for the first time during Leon II. Although Leon could hit, it was nothing like what could hurt Ali. Even when badly out of shape for Young, Muhammad's timing was good.

For his timing to be gone means his fine motor coordination had been compromised, which means brain damage, and while the portion of the brain which governs cognition goes in pugilistica dementia, Ali's mind was always intact. (In fact, his widow Lonnie said his health took a radical downturn after Frazier died, but in all his interviews before he completely lost his voice, it was obvious his cognition never diminished.) It was Ali's motor coordination which went (including his speech) after Shavers.

Nobody ever took as many head shots from Earnie as Ali did. Howard Cosell saying after Ali's career was over that he sensed he'd never be the same fighter after Manila made for dramatic narrative and hyperbole (as was Cosell's want), but that was not Howard's description during Leon Spinks II, when he inadvertently identified Shavers through his unprecedented description of Ali's poor timing and misfiring in the Superdome.

There are some Shavers bouts I'd like you to view and comment on. Henry Clark I in Paris is one (where again, Earnie went in with a bruised right hand). He keyed his long jab, long if compromised right, hook and movement in ring center to an insurmountable early lead. Ron Lyle acknowledged the power of his jab, as did other opponents, also what a sharp, hard and intelligent puncher he was.

His left hook decked Jimmy Young in each of their bouts, and at least the second one is preserved (although never online to the best of my knowledge). His hook nailed Lyle at the end of round two and as Ron said, "He hit me and the ground came up!" And if you look closely, the first shot which stunned Norton was a left hook.

 

Fantastic post with a lot of interesting historical insight about a number of things.

And props for giving Lorenzo Zanon props … if he had an iron chin, I think there’s a reasonable chance he picks up a world belt somewhere along the way. He gave Larry, Norton and Quarry fits.

 

Tim Witherspoon

 

Spoon for me. But some solid arguments for Trevor here, which were a good read.

 

Thank you. As sometimes happens when I go on a stream-of-consciousness tangential ramble, I exceeded the maximum 10,000 characters when I tried to submit that post, and had to repeatedly delete and delete and delete until it was finally accepted for submission. I hope I wasn't forced to trim off too much to communicate the lean meat of what I was trying to deliver.

Lorenzo Zanon was hated and despised by the jingoistic American sports media, which has always mercilessly and relentlessly disdained and ridiculed him, but he sets a fine example for young boxers in many respects. Again, he couldn't take a punch. He had no power. He only circled left. Yet what he accomplished, even in defeat against some of America's best, actually distinguished him when he had no margin for error. He got up a couple times from a still extremely dangerous punching Jerry Quarry before the three knockdown rule finished him. Did he dominate Jerry over the first seven rounds only because JQ was rusty and shot? Zanon's previous performance against Norton and subsequent one against Holmes raise some questions about that.

The guy had heart. He got up from two fourth round knockdowns by Holmes to win round five. He was actually out jabbing peak Larry. "Awkward?" Is that supposed to be an insult? Norton was frequently praised for being awkward, but then again, he was American. He was not counted out in his title shot, referee Ray Solis stopped it. (BoxWRECK records it as a "KO" instead of RSC, but we all know BoxWRECK sucks! I love the precision of British record keeping, "RSC," "RET," "TKO," "Counted Out of Time," etc...)

Zanon was 6'2" with a good reach. Extremely well conditioned 215 pounds. Never stopped moving, never stopped punching, never stopped defending alertly, and never lapsed in concentration. Evangelista could hit. In two and 11 rounds, he THRICE did something Holmes and Dokes failed to do. He knocked out Lucien Rodriguez. He also did something in three rounds which prime Ali failed to do in 12. He knocked out Rudi Lubbers. Why do I point this out? Because Alfredo definitely had the power to knock out Lorenzo. But when Evangelista tried to defend the European Title against Zanon in Turin, he had a very rude awakening. Even after Alfredo had the experience of decision Billy Aird over the Championship Distance, even after his experiences with Ali and Holmes, even after proving his late round stoppage ability in Lucien Rodriguez II (they had four bouts, Evangelista sweeping the first three), he literally couldn't lay a gloved on Lorenzo's head in 36 minutes and 12 rounds of action.

Over those 36 minutes of competition, he never lost concentration, never stopped slipping and blocking shots, never stopped moving while continually punching in transit (using was Malcom "Flash" Gordon defined as "class," and he had a knack for throwing straight and short punches while keeping his shoulders high and tucked towards each other so his opponent's punch attempts would land on or skid past his shoulders.

Evangelista did have fleeting success hooking to Zanon's body, but he didn't stick with it. However, we have the entirety of Zanon-Evangelista II on YouTube. During his post fight interview in the ring, he's not breathing at all hard after all that exertion.

NOBODY should consider anything negative in print about Zanon, but instead view Zanon for themselves, especially in his 12 round shutout over Evangelista, where he never stops moving, never stops punching, repeatedly, slips, ducks, slides, dodges and not for an instant gets distracted, then speaks to the interviewer in the ring as though he was about to begin instead of having just finished 36 minutes of competition. He doesn't really clinch or cover up on the ropes much to sneak a rest. Does he cheat much? Ali cheated like crazy, clinched like crazy, danced during his first career to conserve his arms and absorbed punishment like crazy during his second career.

Forget about whether or not he was "ripped," instead on what he's physically able to do with his body. "Everybody knows he sucked!" Have his millions of critics let a few others do their thinking for them?

 

Always liked the guy. I think him being balding with a combover wasn’t considered manly enough for the critics of his day — which tells you more about those critics than it does Lorenzo. He looked more like the (very fit) guy who owns the pizzeria down on the corner than he does a boxer, and they let that cloud their perception to the point that they couldn’t see what was plainly visible right before their eyes — he was a very able and effective boxer.

 

Witherspoon was the third best heavyweight of the '80s and I'll say that till my dying breath. It goes Holmes, Tyson, then him.

 

H2H?

 

Of course.

 

EXCEPT, Weaver was a slow starter and an awesome finisher.

 

Where do you rate Thomas? He beat a young Witherspoon in peak shape cleanly to take his title. Witherspoon tried every trick he had but couldn't get momentum. The Thomas jab controlled things quite nicely and when tagged hard he came back with solid flurries. Witherspoon had no answer.