Joe Frazier is unproven

In the Superstars competition right after losing the title to Foreman and never having attempted to swim in his life, he was actually the first one to jump on the platform. After nearly drowning in the pool, he told reporters, "How could I know I couldn't do it without first trying?" In the inaugural weight lifting competition, unable to properly lock out his left arm and using the absolute worst technique I have ever seen in my life, he slowly powered up a ridiculous 170 pounds in losing to pole vaulter Bob Seagren, a seasoned weight lifter. (You try lifting that kind of weight with that kind of technique. In a later competition, experienced weight trainer Earnie Shavers did use proper form.)

The guy's physical strength and heart were crazy. (In the rematch against the physically powerful Jerry Quarry, Joe repeatedly shoved JQ's arms back at close quarters with quick ease, not unlike what Foreman did to him.) As he wrote in Box Like the Pros, he had an ongoing disagreement with son Marvis about the benefits of weight training in boxing, saying truthfully, "I was plenty strong." In fact, he did hold his own with weight trainers Chuvalo and Cummings. (Regarding Foreman, George repeatedly shoved back a heavily roided Tommy Morrison with casual ease. Only Jeffries may have been a match for Foreman in terms of natural physical strength.)

 

This 100%, imo he declined after this, got his sh*t together for Foreman but was on the downward slope, Frazier also declined

Frazier not being in as good of shape as FOTC was a factor in Ali's wins in their next fights, FOTC Frazier likely wins in Manila, Ali would still probably get 1/3

Both were in the best shape in FOTC relative to their other fights

 

Fair enough. We'll have to disagree.

If Frazier VS Ali was a 12 rounder, Frazier would've won a majority decision over a much better version of Ali than the one Norton faced. It's a no brainer to me, he would've decisively beaten the Ali who faced Norton, and quite frankly I doubt it would've gone to the cards if Ali suffered a broken jaw.

Their's no way he would've gotten a split decision, which would mean he'd perform worse against a worse version of Ali.

 

Is that honestly the best you can do, after the argument I made?

Not even remotely trying to defend your laughable claim that Norton's record was better than Frazier's.

 

Personally, i think I'd have to see Norton on stage with "The Knockouts" before I could commit to any comparison.

 

I'm pretty sure that we have already seen that.

 

Fraziers average opponent was better but Nortons best non Ali/Foreman opponents were better. While Fraziers best wins were lower top 10ers. Who was Fraziers 3rd best opponent Bugner, Ellis, Bonavena, Quarry?

Fraziers opponents were also smaller and when he fought big guys like Ali, Foreman, Bugner and Mathis he wasn't nearly as effective. Norton had a longer career too. Early upset to Garcia aside the fighters who beat or almost beat Norton like Young, Holmes, Shavers and Cooney would have all been the 3rd toughest opponent of Fraziers career.

Frazier and Norton were the same age but Frazier was a lineal champion with a reign because he came up earlier during Alis exile. Norton came up during the heart of HWs toughest era. Its like the inverse of Holmes avoiding most of that era by being a late bloomer Frazier avoided most of it by being an early bloomer. Except people acknowledge Holmes hit the scene when the golden age was already done. Frazier doesn't really get that because he fought Ali and Foreman 5 times. People don't look any further than that.


I used to rate Frazier in my top 5 and say he was better than even Ali cause Frazier was smaller and only lost the Ali trilogy because his corner quit. The more I look into it the more Frazier looks like the guy who gets credit for fighting in HWs best era without fighting most of the top guys of that era. In the 90s none of the top HWs fought more than 2 of the other top HWs except Holyfield. But in the 70s pretty much everyone except Frazier fought everyone. Norton didn't fight Lyle. Other than that the top 6 HWs of the 70s all fought. Besides Foreman they all fought Shavers too. Except Frazier.

So I rate Norton higher than Frazier now. And I get ranking Frazier higher still but having Norton higher is a reasonable argument. If the two came back in 1973 form and fought today who would be the favorite?

 

I take this back.

 

So you agree Fraziers relatively unproven in this era? But you don't think Norton should or even could be ranked higher than him when hes more proven?

 

I don't even know where to start with your post which flat out made Devon's opening post, look brilliant in comparison.

"Who was Fraziers 3rd best opponent Bugner, Ellis, Bonavena, Quarry?"
Who was Norton's third best opponent that he actually beat? A shot Quarry who was worse than all the men you just listed. He's obviously worse than the prime Quarry, Frazier beat, and he's obviously better than the prime Quarry, who lost to Ellis.

 

Let me get this straight. You used to think Frazier was better than Ali because you think he would have won the trilogy 2-1 if his corner didn't stop the fight? In your own head you just gave him the victory? lol

 

It was because he was so much smaller. I didn't understand how short Fraziers career was I was just thinking who was better based on their fights.

Also I was a kid and changed my mind. I think I had Lennox as the HW GOAT at the time.

 

For mine, that’s another one of those long held myths that Ali would’ve quit after 14 and that Frazier would’ve then won if Futch let Joe come out for round 15.

After 14, poor Joe was gone, clearly worse off than Ali, and had to be led back to his corner by Padilla - who might’ve/should’ve considered stopping it himself due to the very assistance he gave to Joe - technically, fighters are supposed to get back to their corners on their own.

Most importantly, Ali was never going to quit - his whole career otherwise is the ultimate and overwhelming evidence against that notion.

 

Mendoza used to relive it every few months. He virtually held it as a loss against Ali

But he wasn't entirely alone. I'd be confident, just a little, that Eddie Futch knew when to stop a fight. He saw Davey Moore get killed. Jimmy Doyles eyes met Futch's as they stretchered him out of the ring after SRR knocked him out, and he died later. He saw Talmadge Bussey's father and brothers push him back out when they should have been stopping the fight in the corner, and he was killed. He had a promising 6 fight kid who got stopped, incredibly the ref was right on top of the fact that his life was in danger and they got him to hospitla fast and after three days he came out of the woods. Eddie then found out, upon questioning, that as a 6yo he hit his head on the sidewalk....so he'd had a significant previous head injury.

Eddie also pulled Hedgemon Lewis in a fight with 30 seconds left that he thought Lewis was winning.

If Eddie Futch thinks you might be in genuine danger of dying in there i'd sure as hell be taking him on his opinion. People have died many a time in the ring or not long after getting out of it. Fuctch has seen more than enough of it to know what it might (potentially) look or feel like on some occasions.