In defense of Joe Frazier

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ThatOne, Nov 20, 2024.

  1. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2022
    Messages:
    6,324
    Likes Received:
    8,671
    With all his bobbing and weaving he never deliberately head butted anyone. Did he even head butt an opponent?
     
  2. PolishAssasin

    PolishAssasin Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2024
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    321
    I don’t know, I’ve never seen him do that, but he often leaned too much and hit below the belt.
     
    cross_trainer and ThatOne like this.
  3. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,802
    Likes Received:
    2,039
    Arthur Mercante wrote in his autobiography that Frazier was very clean for his style of boxing, while Ali was very dirty with his tactics.

    Following his first match with Frazier, Jerry Quarry told Howard Cosell that Joe was very aggressive and effective in a subtle way with his head and elbows, but immediately qualified that by admitting he wasn't exactly a saint himself in that regard.

    Despite Frazier's body punching orientation, I don't recall him ever even being cautioned for hitting low.

    Joe was highly susceptible himself to having his face swell, and that caused Eddie Futch to stop Manila before Carlos Padilla said he would have. So deliberate head butting could certainly backfire on him.

    Like Marciano, Frazier led with his guard, not his head.
     
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    81,291
    Likes Received:
    21,763
    I didn't know Frazier to be a dirty fighter tbh
     
    Anubis, Terror, Ney and 1 other person like this.
  5. bboyrei

    bboyrei Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2021
    Messages:
    480
    Likes Received:
    799
    Joe’s low blows seemed unintentional for the most part, he was one of the fairest fighters and practically never initiated a clinch.
     
  6. Marvelous_Iron

    Marvelous_Iron Active Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2022
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    1,416
    And didn't Marciano used to talk about fighting his opponents in terms of causing them grave injuries such as "ruining them" and things to that effect, Frazier never seemed to do that even, not that he didn't hurt his opponents but he let his skills speak for themselves
     
    Anubis and Ney like this.
  7. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2022
    Messages:
    6,324
    Likes Received:
    8,671
    Physics would suggest if you throw a lot of hooks and work the body it's hard to avoid any low blows.
     
    Toney F*** U likes this.
  8. FThabxinfan

    FThabxinfan Well-Known Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2024
    Messages:
    2,404
    Likes Received:
    2,012
    It's deemed to happen for any fighters that liked to do it,even McCallum who's notorious for being a masterful technician can't avoid these low blows.
     
    Flash24 and Toney F*** U like this.
  9. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,802
    Likes Received:
    2,039
    He's supposed to have really hammered Ali's hips, but I'd need to specifically look for that on the footage. (I rarely evaluate footage for periphery like this, although I have scrutinized Jack Sharkey's textbook ATG refereeing in Moore-Durelle I & II. If Jack had been the third man instead of Johnny LoBianco, Duran-Buchanan definitely would not have ended with that low blow, and Cleveland Denny would not have died with old and obese 67 Rosarioy/o Baillargeon impotently waving it off behind them, because the athletic Sharkey, who jogged three miles daily through retirement to support his outdoorsman lifestyle, would've instantly stepped in and between the combatants.)
     
    ThatOne likes this.
  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Messages:
    52,791
    Likes Received:
    44,406
    In defense of him from whom? I've never once seen anyone accuse him of being a dirty fighter. His reputation is quite the opposite.
     
  11. bboyrei

    bboyrei Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2021
    Messages:
    480
    Likes Received:
    799
    A better argument to defend against would be he relied exclusively on his left hook, or that he was a slow starter.
     
    Anubis likes this.
  12. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,802
    Likes Received:
    2,039
    And those errant suppositions are easy to defend against. His right tore open Jerry Quarry's face in their rematch, and George Chuvalo made it very clear his right was nothing to sneeze at.

    JQ I? Jerry pitched 93 shots in the first round, but Frazier fired back with 64 of his own, hardly a slow pace.

    He took 13 seconds to floor Ziggy, set him up for the finisher with an excellent short right uppercut, knocked Machen out of the ring in the opening round, sat Ramos on the ropes in the first three minutes and decked Terry Daniels in the opening round. He could be far more dangerous in the first stanza than legitimately slow starting buddy Norton. (Ken's 59 second wipeout of Duane Bobick was perhaps the wildest anomaly of his career.)

    Looking at the JQ 2 masterpiece, Joe jabbed well along with utilizing his right. He also used his jab and right well in his comeback finale against Jumbo Cummings, where he was much the better boxer. And he thwarted Jumbo's attempts to bull him backwards with quick sidesteps. He also moved well on Chuvalo, Stander and in the Foreman rematch. Beating Frazier entailed much more than merely trying to back him up.
     
    bboyrei and Ney like this.
  13. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2024
    Messages:
    8,202
    Likes Received:
    10,674
    Both persistent lies, with the exception of maybe the very first round where he could be slow out of the gate.
     
    bboyrei likes this.
  14. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2021
    Messages:
    17,123
    Likes Received:
    28,050
    Frazier appeared to be as clean as a whistle.

    The only time he might’ve appeared to have semi launched his head was in Manila, don’t ask me which round, but Ali was holding in him down at the time so that’s the context.

    It’s a wonder that Frazier didn’t lose his discipline in their second fight when Ali was holding him to a ridiculous degree.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2024
  15. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2024
    Messages:
    8,202
    Likes Received:
    10,674
    That second fight was appalling. Ali knew he couldn’t win fighting.
     
    Reinhardt, bboyrei and Pugguy like this.