Louis for me is too static and Holmes would be too fast on his feet and with the longer reach I feel like Louis would have major issues Louis's defence could be a bit suspect aswell. Could I see Louis winning ? Absolutely but I'd go with Holmes. As for the worst style match ups for Holmes I think Frazier, Tyson, would be very tough stylistic match ups for him. With fighters like Liston, Lewis, being close to even match ups. I'd make Holmes a slight favourite over Louis in the region of 60/40.
Perhaps, but can you imagine how stunned Louis would be at the sight of a man Holmes’ size bouncing circles around him while stabbing at him with a vast repertoire of different jabs? He’d have to adapt in ways he never had to before.
I don’t disagree but they’re both going to have to adapt. Mike Weaver & green Tim Witherspoon hardly make adequate preparation for Joe Louis. Nor eternally over-rated Earnie Shavers or an ageing Kenny Norton. Each will be the others’ best opponent.
What I find really interesting was how he did with Evander, McCall, Mercer and Tyson while he was so old he took a lot more risks then Mr Foreman in the 90s… Larry was so cagey, he put up a wall of arms, I can’t see anyone putting him out without a bit of interference (ropes lol) against MT Holmes came in with a great plan, his defence was holding up and he got to Mike… youth, strength and a bit of misfortune sealed his fate (but while it lasted you could see how LH could win over 15 rounds) against Evander Holyfield they were pleading with EH to not follow him to the ropes, EH couldn’t do anything with him and in my books he lost that fight he was largely ineffective and the guy landing anything scoring was Larry… he was an extremely well schooled fighter, in a style he seemed to have largely developed or improved upon from Ali, unlike Ali he kept company with Futch, Arcel, Brown and Clancy as trainers or teachers at various points whilst also of course having Ali pass on his own secret…. instead of keeping near sole company with guys like Angelo Dundee 90% of the time as acting “trainer” which I expect being being why he improved on Ali as a boxer "I love Angelo and I think he's great, but he didn't teach me how to fight." - MA.
I disagree. They could both be dropped by a good surprise punch and both recuperated similarly after being hurt.
The Conn fight is an excellent example of Joe's intellect if anything. He came straight out the gate hurling combo after combo at Conn's torso. He put heavy emphasis on body shots, slowed the much faster Conn down and finished him off. This gives confidence that Louis would have the same caution against Holmes and not try to mindlessly head hunt and possibly lose on points. Larry would be dragging his feet after a while, just like Conn was, which would leave him gravely vulnerable to Louis in a fifteen rounder. Which Holmes opponent used the Blackburn crouch? I've seen all his fights up until David Bey. I must've missed that one.
He wouldn't be. You're conflating Louis being methodical with him being slow, and the reason you're doing that is because Louis spent the majority of his time hunting his opponent down, and he always did it slowly and methodically. You know who else significantly slowed down went going on the offensive? Larry Holmes. Every bit as slow and methodical as Louis when cornering opponents. Here's the entirety of the Ocasio fight as proof (14:20 random timestamp) This content is protected When moving backwards or sideways, Louis did it with great speed. I don't know why people expect Joe to run after his opponent like an idiot and get clipped moving into a punch. Even fringe contenders aren't this dumb. The point of the question was the level of opposition each one was facing at their respective ages. Holmes until 25 was taking the weakest of opposition, "building himself up" while the best of the decade were busy slaughtering each other. Louis was thrown straight into the fold and faced relatively peak versions of Baer, Schmeling and Carnera, as well as a multitude of established top tenners/fivers and future contender prospects. Conn didn't weigh below 170 after 1939. He weighed 180 lbs three weeks before fighting Louis. And yes, there's no reason to think Conn couldn't trouble Holmes as much as he troubled Louis. He would hold the same advantages he had over Joe and Holmes didn't even have Joe's type of power to hurt Conn as badly and possibly finish him. He'd be in the fight of his life against Billy. It's silly to think that Conn holding his own against Holmes is unimaginable when he did it against a much harder punching and faster Louis.
Conn was 174 pounds I don't see how you think Louis would be able to replicate the exact same performance against a much bigger man with an 81 inch reach who has much more significant power. Conn is not even a Heavyweight by modern standards and Louis had an almost 20 pound weight advantage over Conn.
Mercer out jabbed Lewis.Williams had a great jab. Williams Witherspoon Cooney Norton Would be better challengers for Louis than 95% of his opposition. Snipes Bey Weaver Smith Compare favourably with most of Joe's challengers. Louis never recuperated from the 1st KD by Schmeling. Would Louis have gotten up from Shavers right hand bomb?
Conn was actually169lbs. Louis' weight was announced as 199½ and Conn's as 174. However, it has been reported that Louis actually weighed 204 and Conn was 169.
Louis was static and that's why he struggled vs Conn his feet were not the fastest. Holmes could also use constant movement and fight a disciplined tactical fight when he need to like he did vs Cooney, Shavers 1. And if Holmes comes into the Louis fight with that same mentality which i'm sure he would knowing of Louis's power then i see no reason why he couldn't win the fight. Louis was behind on points vs Conn and in real danger of losing after 13 rounds, if Louis could've run after his opponent sooner he would've the fact is he couldn't due to a stylistic issue which is what i mentioned above. Louis had over double the amount of Amateur fights as Holmes and had a more successful Amateur career winning the Golden Gloves. Holmes didn't turn professional until he was age 24 so that's not really a fair comparison. The point i was making is that you said Louis was 22 years old and my response to that was Louis was still world class at that stage and had been fighting against world class opposition prior to that. So the way you worded it was that Louis was some green prospect out of his depth but that wasn't the case. Yes Louis did improve after the Schmeling fight as i said but it's not like Louis was a green prospect either he was ranked as the number 1 Heavyweight in the world so it is still a significant loss. I've heard reports saying he was 168 pounds but let's just say for arguments sake he was 174 pounds. Firstly no Conn does not hold the same advantages over Holmes, Holmes had better movement than Louis he would have an almost 10 inch reach advantage over Conn with a 30+ pound weight advantage. As for Holmes not being able to hurt Conn badly ? you're talking about a fighter who stopped 15 out of 20 opponents in his title reign. And you don't think Holmes couldn't badly hurt Conn with a 30+ pound weight advantage ? i'm baffled. I think it's silly to suggest "Holmes would be in the fight of his life vs Conn" quite honestly and i think that's more nostalgia talking than anything.
I heartily agree that these are the number two and three heavyweights of all time, but I'll just say that Joe Louis does literally everything better than Ken Norton. (Everything I can think of, anyway.) On the other hand, I'm one of the few who think that Holmes-Norton was extremely lobsided in favor of Holmes.