Oleksandr Usyk vs Jack Johnson, with poll

cross_trainer · Dec 26, 2021

Bukkake said: ↑

And this carried over into the ring - where the average boxer back then was tougher, and fought with more heart, than today?
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Unless PEDs are increasing modern fighters' toughness -- and there's some debate that they do -- I would expect elite athletes drawn from a tougher population to be tougher, on average, than elite athletes drawn from a less-tough population.

cross_trainer · Dec 26, 2021

McGrain said: ↑

Is modern-day poverty in The Philippines and Kazakhstan less awful than poverty in 1900 America?

Is that just "settled"?
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No, not necessarily. But the Philippines was producing fighters pretty early. As were many other locales controlled by the European empires. So they would count for the early period as well.

EDIT: Put another way, Pancho Villa's Philippines were probably even worse than Pacquiao's.

McGrain · Dec 26, 2021

cross_trainer said: ↑

No, not necessarily. But the Philippines was producing fighters pretty early. As were many other locales controlled by the European empires. So they would count for the early period as well.

EDIT: Put another way, Pancho Villa's Philippines were probably even worse than Pacquiao's.
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So you'd be happy to say that the Filipino fighters of Villa's era are tougher than those of Pacquiao's?

cross_trainer · Dec 26, 2021

McGrain said: ↑

So you'd be happy to say that the Filipino fighters of Villa's era are tougher than those of Pacquiao's?
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Probably, on average.

Two caveats. First, the average difference in toughness might not be significant for fight outcomes. Second, I'd be more comfortable saying that the average toughness of fighters globally a hundred years ago was higher. It might be that there was something regionally funky about the Philippines (or wherever) that made it an easier place to live in 1920 than 2020. Expanding the scope to the entire world would smooth out regional eccentricities.

McGrain · Dec 26, 2021

cross_trainer said: ↑

Probably, on average.

Two caveats. First, the average difference in toughness might not be significant for fight outcomes. Second, I'd be more comfortable saying that the average toughness of fighters globally a hundred years ago was higher. It might be that there was something regionally funky about the Philippines (or wherever) that made it an easier place to live in 1920 than 2020. Expanding the scope to the entire world would smooth out regional eccentricities.
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I think that the most important caveat is that the difference in toughness doesn't matter. These guys aren't bein asked to do what those guys were being asked to do. Fight 9 times a year. Fight over 20 rounds. Fight with awful cuts and injuries etc.

12 rounds with big mitts and a cornerman who knows your name just doesn't provide the same test. So maybe you're right, but for guys like Melvin Jerusalem and Vic Saludar it's not a meaningful difference, if it exists for Filipinos (I don't think it does).

And it especially doesn't matter for guys like Manny Pacquiao and Donnie Nietes. These guys are as tough as professional fighters can be, basically, and have proven it.

cross_trainer · Dec 26, 2021

McGrain said: ↑

I think that the most important caveat is that the difference in toughness doesn't matter. These guys aren't bein asked to do what those guys were being asked to do. Fight 9 times a year. Fight over 20 rounds. Fight with awful cuts and injuries etc.

12 rounds with big mitts and a cornerman who knows your name just doesn't provide the same test. So maybe you're right, but for guys like Melvin Jerusalem and Vic Saludar it's not a meaningful difference, if it exists for Filipinos (I don't think it does).

And it especially doesn't matter for guys like Manny Pacquiao and Donnie Nietes. These guys are as tough as professional fighters can be, basically, and have proven it.
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Yeah, I think that's basically right.

WBARuinedBoxing · Dec 22, 2024

dmt said: ↑

Gloved boxing was the main form of boxing starting in 1892. Techniques develop and evolve over time.

Now i do not believe that techniques develop indefinitely. I think modern boxing technique had developed significantly by the mid to late 1930's (the beginning of Joe Louis era). Most modern techniques including defense (hands up, chin down), counter punching, combination punching, complex footwork, cutting the ring against a clever boxer, circling away from your opponents best punch etc. were developed by then.

I think the likes of Joe Louis, SRR, Archie Moore etc. are just as technically skilled as their modern counterparts. So while every generation has a few fighters who introduce new things (such as Fury almost redefining the speed and footwork expected of a super heavyweight), i believe boxing techniques evolved about as much as possible within the first 45-50 years of gloved boxing. That's why i consider Joe Louis to be a different class than the great heavyweights before him.

Now Johnson is one of the most important historical figures in boxing. But techniques were still in infancy when he was fighting. A lot of his opponents did not know how to properly cut the ring against him ala Frazier or Armstrong (among others). A lot of them just followed him in straight lines throwing 1-2 punches at a time. Johnson, against such offense, could simply block punches in the air.

That kind of defense is much harder when you have a skilled 220 lb fighter like Usyk who is using all sorts of weird angles and throwing powerful lefts from an awkward southpaw stance. Usyk is not going to throw 1-2 punches at a time, he will punch in combinations. His footwork and defense is more complex than anything Johnson has seen.

Johnson was a wonderful athlete and he was a big man by his era's standards. But he could be decked even by smaller men. I would bet good money that Usyk hits harder than any of Johnson's title opponents (including the aging Jefferies). I don't think Johnson could handle a modern fighter with the footwork, awkward angles, potent left hand and excellent combinations of Usyk.

Some people vastly underrate past fighters and think boxing is always improving. Not true. I think the 70's was the deepest era in heavyweight boxing followed by the 90's. I think Joe Louis would beat most heavyweights that came after him. I don't think boxing is always improving though there are all time great fighters in every generation.

I would favour Usyk to outbox even someone like Jack Dempsey. However, Dempsey with his more modern style, bobbing and weaving, throwing big left hooks and combinations, would stand a better chance vs Usyk than Johnson would.

I can't see Johnson, if transported by a time machine, being able to deal with a superior boxer like Usyk. IMO Usyk wins a UD, probably a 9-3 or even a 10-2 decision.

And that is no knock on Johnson. If it wasn't for a Johnson, we may never have had later great champions. The early boxers from the 1890's, 1900's, 10's and 20's helped pioneer the techniques that later champions improved upon and perfected. We may not have a Mike Tyson style if it wasn't for Jack Dempsey. Its just that Tyson took Dempsey's style and refined it further.

Now if you bring Johnson in the modern era as a 20 year old, give him a great trainer, modern nutrition, 100's of hours of footage to study and learn from, and 5-7 years of training, he may beat everyone today.

But a time machine transportation? Usyk UD 12, 10 rounds to 2.
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Choynski hit harder than Usky, but then again he starched papa Jack in 3....

WBARuinedBoxing · Dec 22, 2024

Ruleset is the defining factor here

Melankomas · Dec 22, 2024

If Johnson can’t control Usyk in the clinch, it’s over. Usyk is very hard to control and has wrestling and judo backgrounds.

BoxingFanMike · Dec 22, 2024

With the stated conditions Usyk should win this with little difficulty. However the conditions are terribly weighted against Johnson. What if we sent Oleksandr back to Johnson’s time, rules, nutrition, pre fight scouting etc? Things might change.
But for the OPs stated scenario, Johnson is going to get beaten badly.

Shay Sonya · Dec 22, 2024

So we are going to give Oleksandr Usyk views of every Jack Johnson fight he has found, or others have found for him, and Jack Johnson steps out of his time and knows nothing about Oleksandr Usyk, and then is given the gloves and rules he knows nothing about? (When? In his dressing room? In his corner right before the fight begins?) Okay. No vote from me.

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Oleksandr Usyk vs Jack Johnson, with poll

Who wins?

Johnson wins, and I've never had a boxing match

Johnson wins, and I've had at least one boxing match

Usyk wins, and I've never had a boxing match

Usyk wins, and I've had at least one boxing match

I voted accidentally, so I'm picking this one

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

WBARuinedBoxing New Member Full Member

WBARuinedBoxing New Member Full Member

Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

BoxingFanMike Member Full Member

Shay Sonya The REAL Wonder Woman! Full Member

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Oleksandr Usyk vs Jack Johnson, with poll

Who wins?

Johnson wins, and I've *never* had a boxing match

Johnson wins, and I've had *at least one* boxing match

Usyk wins, and I've *never* had a boxing match

Usyk wins, and I've had *at least one* boxing match

I voted accidentally, so I'm picking this one

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

WBARuinedBoxing New Member Full Member

WBARuinedBoxing New Member Full Member

Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

BoxingFanMike Member Full Member

Shay Sonya The REAL Wonder Woman! Full Member

Johnson wins, and I've never had a boxing match

Johnson wins, and I've had at least one boxing match

Usyk wins, and I've never had a boxing match

Usyk wins, and I've had at least one boxing match