CMV: I think Usyk beats any version of Ali

The youngsters always do this - the man has had what less then 10 fights at heavy and somehow is on the discussion facing one of the greatest heavys of alltime?
A heavyweight that beat every single style that he met and also beat great heavys at HEAVYWEIGHT.
I laugh at the one who actually thinks Holyfield would beat a PRIME Ali - show me the boxer that Holy beat at heavy that remotely resembles an Ali.

 

I don't see how fighting at heavyweight should be a prerequisite. Plenty of guys who never fought at heavyweight would beat past heavyweights

 

Because heavyweight is a different breed and weight can play a very big factor.
Plenty of guys who never fought at heavyweight could be past heavyweights? Who and why would you not fight at heavyweight where most of the money is if you could beat them?

 

Totally agree. Usyk would have a far easier time with Foreman that Ali, and still both are very competitive.

 

So we agree that there isn’t proof of Ali being good at dealing with an educated straight left.

 

Ali was way ahead of the curve for his time, though. The best 60s guys couldn't compete with him, and the best 70s guys eked out losing records against the Parkinsons version.

Like Louis, it's not so much that Ali's opposition would beat the modern crop (they wouldn't), but that Ali showed such consistent dominance over most of them. Credit where it's due: Time-machine Ali into a modern ring, and Ali is still an exceptional cruiserweight-sized man even by modern standards. That gives him chances against today's giants.

 

They still beat him despite all of those things. Ali is too technically flawed, they'd easily exploit that.

⨀ Frazier only had a left hook and he was partially blind in one eye since the late 60s.
Frazier beat him in their 1st fight.
In their 2nd battle, Ali kept holding Frazier’s head throughout the entire fight (a foul but never any warnings much less point deductions from the referee) thereby taking away Frazier’s inside fight game, and got the decision.
In the 3rd fight, Frazier was already washed up. He also came in about seven pounds over his best weight and consequently ran out of gas. And Ali was about to quit in the 15th round. Had Eddie Futch not thrown the towel, Ali wouldn’t have gotten up and subsequently would have lost the fight.
⨀ Liston was in his early 40's when he fought Ali. He went into their first fight carrying a shoulder injury and barely trained. Took a dive in the second.
⨀ Norton was never that great of a boxer and certainly not a very hard puncher. He is overrated simply cause he beat Ali and always had Ali’s number, giving him hell in all 3 fights.
Ali's fights with Norton could have been 3 losses. Broken jaw in the first fight, a decision in the second encounter that was “biased” for Ali since it set up a rubber match. In their final fight, it was dead even going into the fifteenth round. Norton took that round clearly but again, the nod went to Ali.
Bottom line is, where he not a favorite of the press and public, Ali could very well have more losses than wins against Norton.
⨀ Foreman is the only win Ali deserves credit. But the again, he tricked Foreman, who punched himself out in the excruciating heat of Zaire. And Foreman never landed any clean punches.

 

"He tricked him." The same way MacArthur tricked the North Koreans and Chinese at Inchon. Those dirty dogs.

 

Yep, for ten years he beat everyone that mattered. Beat 19 of the 20 fighters in The Ring annaul rankings of 1963 and 1973. We agree so far.

But where does the myth part come into it exactly?

 

So Liston was old as Methusaleh when he lost to Ali? Did he age nine hundred years between his fights with Ali and his destruction of another heavyweight all time great not once but twice in his previous two bouts? As to injuries they are part of every sport.

 

Foreman landed few clean punches because of Ali's exquisite guard. The way he picked off punches by slightly moving his elbows was something to behold. Watch the fight. It wasn't serendipity.

 

Ali also "tricked" Angelo Dundee and Bundini Brown. That's another century of boxing experience.

 

In between the punches he evaded, Ali bounced Foreman's head up and down like a floor to ceiling bag.

I cannot understand how this myth of Ali has become so prevalent. Anyone would think he was just a fast bum with no skills, no technical knowledge and just speed and guts.

They talk about Foreman, Kenny Norts, Frazier, Liston, Terrell, Patterson, Chuvalo, Lyle, Folley, Quarry, like they were some bums. Rank fighters who didn't prove themselves in the ring anywhere near the same degree as Ali as being higher/better despite them not having anywhere near the same level of competition in terms of HW ranking or skill or just the multitude of styles that he faced.

Ali showed in Liston I just how good a boxer he is when he comes off his toes, controls the ring centre and jabs Liston into reality. Liston's head movement was excellent - look at how many times he slips Ali's jabs and yet, he cannot avoid all of them and when Ali opens up, he stuns Liston and puts him in a defensive shell. This wasn't a Liston that was technically void, or lacking of skill and reflex, he was a very good fighter in there - Ali was just that fast that night.

In every fight of young Ali, look at the faces of the fighters he landed his jab on.