1947 Jersey Joe Walcott vs 1960 Sonny Liston

On que… you’re so bizarre man - still somehow this upset and THIS emotionally invested over a boxing opinion to do with guys from like the 60s? following me around online whining / mud slinging for years after the fact is unhealthy.

 

“If you think Liston could fight inside I don’t think you understand what you’re seeing, take a look at Louis for a heavyweight example. Fighting that way just wasn’t Liston’s strong suit there’s nothing wrong with that. Yes Eddie had an injured right hand and fought like it.”

Let me also make a distinction when I say “couldn’t fight inside” this might be just a matter of terms, I don't mean he can’t fight there at all it’s a weak point, not non existent or anything like that - is that might be your issue with what I said? I have no stakes in this, It doesn’t bother me if I’m wrong about this - Do you have some examples of Listons inside fighting?

 

My question to you and the 13 people who pick Liston to knock out Walcott:
What did Whitehurst, Machen and Marshall have that Walcott did not?

 

Well, for at least two of them they had the luxury of facing an inexperienced Liston. If we’re assuming that this fantasy fight takes place when the two combatants were at their best then it’s not likely Walcott would be facing the same man. Otherwise I might ask “ what did Abe Simon have that Liston didn’t ?. “

 

Strange reply. You do exhibit bias.

I’m not upset about it - I’m just calling it out.

There have been plenty of fighters who weren’t injured who fought only to survive for its own sake.

That’s not a bell ringing point for Machen’s safety first performance being put down only to an allegedly injured right hand.

Shortly prior to facing Machen, Liston destroyed an equally capable boxer, at the least, in Zora Folley who tried to mix it up with Sonny.

I would make a well educated guess that the quick KO of Folley wasn’t lost on Machen and that it heavily influenced Eddie’s overt survival strategy.

You’re also ignoring that Machen came up with the other excuse of being blinded by Liston 4 years after the fact of their fight.

Liston could fight on the inside, many can see it for themselves, just not you.

Liston brought Williams down with short, powerful punches in close.

Besmanoff tried to negate Liston by moving in close and Liston causally and methodically dismantled him with short, inside punches. At both range and up close, Besmanoff was severely punished.

If you want an accurate reference point for a fighter who wasn’t strong on the inside, look to Mike Tyson.

 

Imo sonny is a bad matchup for Jersey Joe.
I see Liston getting him around the half way mark.

 

I agree that for the Marshall trilogy, Liston still had learning and growing to do, but Whitehurst?
20 rounds in 1958, his absolute prime, against a never ranking nobody?
This wasn't a two fight fluke either, Machen again showed how Liston struggled with retreating fighters, and did so against an unquestionably prime Liston.
I don't believe Machen was blinded, none of that can be seen on film, but he threw, what, three right hands the whole fight?
If his right hand was truly injured then Liston couldn't take out a one armed fighter.
I'm not going to rag on the Machen fight too much though, a prime Frazier had his hands full with a well past it Machen, only taking him out in the tenth, so it's not nearly as bad as the Whitehurst fights even if Machen was injured.
The problem though is who he is fighting in this hypothetical. It's not some moderately quick boxer like say, Ellis. It's Jersey Joe Walcott, one of the fastest moving fighters to compete at heavyweight.
We can clearly see from the Louis fights that Walcott was significantly faster skipping around the ring than Machen was, and had way more unpredictable shoulder movement and could switch directions on a whim. The guy inspired Muhammad Ali.
Bringing up the Abe Simon fight doesn't work, as you said, we're taking them at their best.
1958 and 1960 is Liston at his best. 1939 is not even close to Walcott's prime.
Just a glance at the record confirms this, Walcott hit his stride in 1945 and for the next two years he cleaned out the division of every worthwhile opponent, many of whom were serious punchers, none could put a dent in him.
The thirteen people who voted for a Liston KO are banking on Sonny finishing the fastest guy he'd be in the ring with barring Ali, when every other time he came against someone half as quick as Joe he failed to produce a KO. The Ali fights are the icing on the cake. Liston struggled mightily against boxers who could retreat and in this one he'd be up against the best of them.
Knockout? Fat chance. Decision win based on the jab though is far more likely.

 

GREAT analysis! It once again bears repeating that Sonny was an excellent ring tactician and he would be able to counter a lot of Walcott's cleverness. Jersey Joe would put up a helluva fight--but Liston eventually catches him. KO or stoppage roughly 10-11 rounds.

 

Fair enough. But Liston was still only 16-1 against Whitehurst and still managed to knock him out of the ring.

I suppose that’s fair but Liston was 16-1 against Whitehurst and still managed to knock him out of the ring. I doubt this was the same man who crippled the division from 1960-1963. Eddie Machen was stopped only three times in sixty four pro bouts. Two of those stoppages came in the last couple fights of his career.

 

Jersey Joe gives a very entertaining display of boxing pyrotechics for 6-8 rounds pestering and outboxing Sonny.

Eventually his bag of tricks runs empty and Sonny nails him for a late stoppage.