Sonny Liston Has To Prove Himself In A Baptism of Fire..?

Well could you tell me who you favour Liston to beat over Louis?

 

I did, lol. Beginning of the post.

 

OH my bad sir, misread it. Why?

 

Fair comment

 

Stylistic matchups, matters of physical attribute, and otherwise. Louis had a hard time fighting boxers coming in out of a crouch, and he had a tendency to get caught much easier and harder than Liston did (though, he obviously faced tougher competition than Sonny, I still think it's just a matter of balance, no slight to Joe). I feel like Liston would whip the **** out of Tyson due to his heavy jab, heavier right hand, and the likelihood that he'd intimidate Mike through his soul. Frazier is a situation where I think the fight could go either way (similar to how I think Frazier/Louis would be), but have to favor Sonny in something like a 60/40 or 70/30 split due to his better chin and harder punching.

And side note... I feel like despite having Frazier lower than Mike h2h, he provides a tougher challenge to guys higher and lower when compared to other guys around him. Think the only other heavyweight I don't have in my top 5 to provide a challenge like that would be Schmeling (I like comparing those two... Very deserved #2's who give entertaining fights all around). Frazier would be tougher on Liston than Mike would be.

 

Easier than Foreman because Listons chin is less proven than Foremans. But a risky fight for sure.

Louis having a bad chin is in terms of going down not in terms of going to sleep. If Louis can take Liston out it doesn't matter if Louis can't stay up Listons power is likely decisive but the durability of Liston is the x factor here.

Whether you lose 2 points for the knockdown will also matter a lot.

 

I agree Fraziers can contest the whole fight and Tysons cardio problems are a stricter limitation. If Tyson isn't winning at the start he can't really come back from that. Frazer can. And against Liston Mike probably isn't going to be winning at the start. Tyson can do better against Liston in a short term war then Frazier can but if they are both going to lose regardless I'm not sure that matters.

 

A measely 7 lbs and 4 inches of reach won't make up for the massive difference in speed, stamina and skill. Louis counters Liston's jab and knocks him out. Sonny's going to score a knockdown with his left hook though.

 

There's nothing to indicate Sonny's superiority in terms of durability. Got knocked out a lot easier three times than Louis was the two times he got knocked out.

 

I suspect Liston would 'prove himself'.

In doing so, he may be toppled, or he may be the toppler. There might be a bit of toppling all around before the last topple.

If it goes the distance, maybe Louis out boxes Liston; then again, maybe it goes the distance because Louis has trouble negotiating Liston's jab.

I'm not betting it goes the distance.

Plenty of reasons either fellow might win.

Would hunch/gut/heart bet Louis, but nothing stronger. Inclined to believe Liston 'proved himself', however it turns out.

 

He didn't get "knocked out" in the first Ali bout, in a way that had to do with his chin.

I don't think anyone's convinced at his performance in the second Ali bout.

Against Martin he was 39 and a half years old (minimum). Louis was already retired by then.

Louis was floored ten times. 5 times more than Liston.

Liston's durability was much better. Not even close enough for a debate.

 

Good to see some alternate opinions! To start, could we discuss Frazier? Personally when I watch Frazier I see a prey animal for Louis, that fight would not last long 3-4 rounds.
Louis’s hook was so short, this is a big factor Frazier got on his front foot and let his get WIDE, Louis I think would time his hook coming in each time with a short right hand or swap hooks, just he’d get there a lot faster… inside I don’t see anything Louis couldn’t do better can you? much shorter puncher, MUCH MUCH faster and harder hitting too - Frazier got caught a lot, Louis always demonstrated his ability to land a kill shot at the right moment in with Schemling the first time around he kept working the plan till the end it happened again in Walcott 1 but in Walcott 2… well he found the shot he wouldn’t pointlessly open up, Frazier would give him a lot of chances on the other hand. Frazier put himself too far forward (leaning in on that front foot) he was always in range (an error) and made himself very close to his opponents hands almost spiritually lol he relied on the rhythm to get going according to Eddie Futches speed bag analogy of his head movement… well in the process of finding his “beat” how do you like his chances? Against GF he let himself be overwhelmed when he was hurt badly trying to get back into the fight, Louis was easily just as and IMO more prepared to take him out fast knowing this, provided he and Blackburn can watch tapes which would be fair no? Mathis, Bonavena, Quarry and Ali you’d agree didn’t have the delivery system or the power of Louis nor the fishing capability nor the inside fighting ability wouldn’t you agree? They still found ways to get to Joe just this time it’ll hurt a helluva lot more… Quarry’s plan is exactly the same as Louis would do but better GET the right inside the hook but this time….

 

He was wobbled throughout the fight and was a badly bruised up mess by the time he called it quits. Had he come out for the 7nth, Ali's prediction would've been proven false because he wouldn't be on his feet for the eighth. Liston here is getting more credit for staying on his stool than Louis did for coming out to be knocked out by Marciano and Schmeling. As if his durability would've been better had he quit before getting knocked out.

The flopping on the canvas was hardly convincing, but the knockdown was legit. The punch shook Sonny pretty bad.

At 39, Walcott was taking nuclears to the chin by Rocky Marciano and still dominating before finally being stopped. At 41, Moore was battling it out with a prime Nino Valdez, at 40+, Foreman was a walking pinata for Holyfield, Moorer and co, but still always saw the end of those fights. Different fighters age differently. Sonny was five years past prime for Martin, Louis was five years past his against Walcott, eight against Charles and nine years eroded for Marciano.
More importantly, Louis was getting blasted by prime champ caliber fighters from round one against all these punchers, Liston was dominating for the first seven rounds and was taken out in just two rounds when Leotis started landing.
Liston never survived the kind of beatings Louis took from Schmeling, Marciano, Walcott or Charles. Whenever he had the chance to prove his durability in such scenarios, he either folded or got folded in short order.

Naturally, he fought many more contenders than Liston did and many more punchers than Liston did. But I'll even give Liston the nod for being harder to knock down than Louiis was, that doesn't mean it was more difficult to finish him. Louis had a propensity for early knockdowns but he was far from being finished in those cases. Walcott, Schmeling, Braddock and Buddy landed more punches after the knockdowns, they still were nowhere close to hurting Louis.

There is no debate because Liston didn't even face as many punchers as Louis did. the two big ones he fought were an old Nino Valdez, whom Louis took out in a single round as a retired fighter, and Cleveland Williams who was a glass canon, who never got thechance to test Sonny for more than two rounds.
Sonny never took half the beating Louis did in the Ezzard Charles fight, and Louis finished the whole fifteen in that one.

 

Louis was a master of powerful combinations, and though his jab wasn't the level of Liston's it was still damn good.

Louis gets floored and badly staggered along the way, but he ends up raining hammer blows time and again, over 30 unanswered at the end. Liston helpless, stopped in 14.

 

The only other “puncher” Sonny fought was the 190lbs or so Folley (also a bit glass) I listed all the punchers Louis fought in the above, my mistake was Farr lol I was meant to write Carnera the KD was legit, there was no fix however, Liston was just a quitter no conspiracy, Ali pivoted to his right and landed a peach of a shot in the 2nd bout, Ali also was turning him into a bobble head in the 1st bout till he quit again.