If counting cruiserweight as heavyweight. who has better resume: Usyk or Holmes?

Great post.

 

A-Usyk is almost exactly the same size as Larry Holmes. Usyk being better than Holmes "P4P" would require being smaller.

"Holmes’ HW resume is great but narrower."

Oh dear.

Historically everything above 175 was considered HW. Usyk winning CW doesn't make his resume "broader". Like I said if we count the fights as HW fights its the padding other ATG HWs records have and don't credit for except its decorated as something else. Also theres not very much of it. Hes got 23 fights against 21 opponents. Who someone beats matters not the belt. And you haven't convinced me that Usyk cleaning out CW means anything in an ATG HW historical context because the fighters hes beaten haven't done anything to do so or even made the attempt. I'm not going to give him credit for beating top 5 etc ranked CWs when whatever status those fighters have at CW is based on them having a safe space to avoid HW. And if CW didn't exist theres no proof they would have that status.

B-I never said Usyk isn't elite and its possible he was the best HW of the era which I do not hold in high regard. Its hard to tell if you never fight anyone new. The honest truth is we don't know if Fury and AJ were the best we were forced to assume that for years because of them not fighting anyone new. In the early 2020s the identity of the best HW is as great a mystery as its ever been. But the Dunn comparison wasn't to Fury and AJ it was to Chisora who was Alis 29th best HW opponent not his 4th.

Alis trilogys were with Frazier and Norton. And the rematch charge stings more the fewer fights you have and how much of your reign they take up. Thats why its held against your Jeffries, Marcianos and eventually your Usyks because those rematches are taking the place of additional challenges. Ali cleaned out his division to such an extent Eddie Machen is really the only consensus top 10 fighter he didn't fight over a 15 year period. No one cares if he rematched Henry Cooper or Chuvalo because at the end of the day it took away from nothing. Usyks fought 4 HW title contenders from 1 country.

C-Shavers is one of the most powerful HWs ever. Being knocked down by him is as excusable as it comes. He and about 20 others are better title opponents than Chisora.

D-Whats pedantic is holding Holmes not unifying against him. Usyk didn't unify multiple interim titles and lost his undisputed status almost instantly because he couldn't even promise to fight the IBF winner after the Fury rematch the IBF agreed to give him a waiver for. Usyk shouldn't have to unify with Dubois cause he beat him but somehow this logic doesn't apply to Weaver and co?

Counting rounds is not pedantic its how fighters who don't score knockouts often like Usyk win fights. They are the thing that determines if he wins the fight. The score in any sport is the least pedantic thing there is.

Holmes lost 6-7 rounds to Ken Norton who he was shutting him out at the midway point and almost lost to Witherspoon? So those are great fighters. Despite fighting 15 rounds for most of his fights and defending his title 20 times Holmes only lost 30 rounds between Norton and Spinks. Holmes is seen as the long reigning HW champ that struggled the most but he was much more dominant than Usyk which only serves to highlight how not dominant Usyk has been. Also how one hold the Weaver fight being difficult against Holmes while also berating him for not unifying Weavers belt?

"So what, Fury and Joshua are ATG-level foes and way bigger and stronger then him". Something that ticks me off is the Usyk praise for overcoming Fury and AJ and acting like hes Canelo breaking a glass ceiling of some kind. Usyk is 6 ft 3 hes not Jack Sharkey hes not Sam Langford hes Muhammad Ali, George Foreman and Larry Holmes. Wheres Holmes medal for beating Gerry Cooney hes 6 ft 6 hes way bigger and stronger? Whereas Alis and Foremans for knocking out Wepner who I've been told by some "sucks". Usyk barely beating someone 6 ft 6 is in no way shape or form historically unprecedented and yet we're all expected to pretend it is and clap like trained seals. Chagaev gave Valuev a foot and beat him. Langford gave Andre Anderson a foot and beat him a century ago. Usyk in all likelihood isn't the best 6 ft 3 guy in the division which would be Kabayel whose had to wait 8 years for his shot because of Fury, AJ and Wilder reign of terror. Kabayel knocked out a 6 ft 6 guy just last week but we've got to pretend Usyk made some sort of unprecedented history? Usyk could prove me wrong but he won't because he'll retire before hes required to fight Kabayel. Usyks taller than Chisora.

Dubois is complicated. Hes the only win that has the potential to age well but he was green and there was the whole foul thing. Dubois's destruction of AJ also seriously damaged AJs reputation and the reputation of the era Usyk proved he was marginally the best of. Its a double edged sword for Usyk and which side hurts more depends on how Dubois does going forward. Its why I'm not too bothered Usyk wants a rematch it'd be very understandbale if not for Usyk and the divisions recent history.

Any criticism one has of Holmes choice of opponents is sainthood compared to Usyk and his 3 peers. To the extent Holmes fought middling competition in the early 80s thats all that was available and the guys he could have fought but didn't came later like Pinklon, Tucker and Page etc. That doesn't matter when your 4th best opponent is Derek Chisora and you barely beat him. Scott Frank(who was undefeated) is not the normal Holmes title defense any more than Johnny Paycheck is the typical Joe Louis title defense. The worst Holmes defenses are Frank, LeDoux, Zanon and maybe Cobb all of whom were more deserving than Chisora. After that its all quality theres nothing wrong with the group just guys who'd switch out for others. I know Usyk wasn't defending a belt but every single one of Holmes title opponents had less losses than Chisora did when Usyk fought him. Every single one.

"Dominance isn’t just KOs, Usyk’s technical mastery mirrors Holmes’ jab-heavy decisions". Normally guys whose dominance isn't measured in KOs dont' lose a ton of rounds.

 

A. P4P and Resume Scope: You’re missing the whole point, this isn’t about comparing Usyk and Holmes at HW; it’s about their total resumes, P4P. Cruiserweight is a separate weight class, and for this thread, we’re treating it that way. Usyk unified CW at 200 lbs, beating legit fighters like Gassiev, Briedis, and Glowacki—some of the best in that division’s history—then jumped to HW and took out Fury (6’9”, 270 lbs) and Joshua (6’6”, 240 lbs). Holmes ruled HW at ~215 lbs but never touched another class. Ignoring Usyk’s CW run because it’s not HW is dumb and short-sighted, you’re tossing out elite wins just to prop up your HW-supremacy agenda. That’s a casual take, pretending a whole weight class doesn’t count because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Usyk’s resume spans two divisions with top-tier scalps; Holmes’ is HW-only. P4P, that’s broader and deeper—deal with it.

B. Rematches and Era: Contracts still explain the rematches—Usyk’s not ducking new foes; he’s honoring clauses as the B-side. Joshua and Fury were the best HWs when Usyk fought them, Joshua had beaten fighters like Klitschko, Povetkin, and Parker, Fury took out Wilder, the other top dog. Saying they weren’t the best is revisionist nonsense to discredit Usyk. Holmes rematched Shavers, Ali had trilogies—elites revisit top threats. Your Dunn-Chisora comparison? Laughable. Dunn was a regional nobody at best; Chisora’s a world-class veteran who’s faced Klitschko, Fury, and Haye—a level Dunn couldn’t dream of. Comparing them is disingenuous garbage. And it’s funny you rag on Usyk for fighting Brits—Holmes and Ali mostly fought Americans, yet no one cries about that. It’s not Usyk’s fault the division’s best right now are British; he’s just cleaning them out.

C. Shavers and Chisora: Shavers was a decent puncher but imo overrated he never knocked out anyone good besides Norton who was past his best and had a somewhat suspect chin. But Chisora’s no slouch either and as a fighter is much better then Shavers tbh—40+ fights, faced Klitschko, Fury, Haye and gave them all good fights—and Usyk handled him quite well when he was still getting used to heavyweight as it was his second fight. You list “20 better” than Chisora? Hyperbole. Holmes’ lesser foes (Frank, LeDoux) weren’t exactly murderers’ row either. Point is, Usyk’s beating the best of his time, not coasting.

D. Rounds, Unification, and Dominance: I never held Holmes not unifying against him—this is about resumes, not belts (though he ducked plenty, like Pinklon and Tucker). My point is that Holmes lost as many rounds to top guys as Usyk did plus got hurt and floored by lesser fighters like Snipes and arguably lost to Witherspoon. Usyk’s had close fights (Fury 1, Briedis), but its impossible to say he arguably lost those fights. You slam Usyk for dropping rounds to elites yet give Holmes a pass for the same, just because he dominated lesser fighters? That’s inconsistent nonsense. If Usyk fought Holmes’ weaker foes—Frank, LeDoux—he’d mop them too; he smoked Dubois, winning near every round. (You also overhype Usyk’s round losses he barely lost any rounds in the first Joshua fight or the second Fury fight but that’s another debate.)

 

Cont
Smaller fighters beating bigger, skilled ones is tough and always impressive when they do so because of how much disadvantages they have to overcome to do so, Joshua (6’6”, 240 lbs) and Fury (6’9”, 270 lbs) aren’t just tall; they’re elite. That’s why Usyk (6’3”) topping them is a big deal, way beyond Holmes handling Cooney (6’6”), who gave him a competitive fight but gassed and got KO’d, but Cooney is not even close to Fury/Joshua’s level. Kabayel better? No proof—he’s got a couple decent wins (Sanchez and Zhang), but he’s no champ and hasn’t faced the division’s best. Usyk’s the undisputed king and pretending otherwise is just cope to downplay him—same pattern you’ve been running throughout you post.

Not true, Chisora would slot among Holmes’ best wins, not his worst. You obsess over losses, but that’s a lazy metric, Chisora’s got 12+ because he fought Klitschko, Fury, Haye, Whyte, top guys, and gave them all hell. Skill-wise, he’s leagues above Frank (undefeated but untested), LeDoux (journeyman), Zanon (nobody), and Cobb (solid but limited). Pretending they’re “more deserving” than a proven, world-class vet is straight cope, Chisora’s resume buries them objectively. And Usyk didn’t pick him for a title defense—he had no belt then; it was a warmup to adjust to HW before challenging Joshua. Fixating on that instead of Usyk’s real scalps (Fury, Joshua, Gassiev) just shows you’re dodging the bigger picture to prop up Holmes.

Tell that to Holmes who is even more guilty of that

 

Where is the evidence for the versions of Fury and Joshua that Usyk beat being the best opponents available?

They simply don't have the wins to back that assessment especially given the success of Parker Kabayel and Dubois

 

Because they were the champs at the time and the top fighters of the division. Parker Kabayel and Dubois only started to rise after Usyk beat both.

 

Larry Holmes top ten consensus wins... with vote tally
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/name-holmes-ten-best-wins.719448/

Norton-5
Witherspoon-5
Shavers 2-5
Cooney -5
Berbick-5
Leon Spinks-5
Bonecrusher-4
Mercer-4
Shavers 1-4
Weaver-4

Usyk's top ten consensus wins thus far, with vote tally...
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/usyks-top-ten-victories-so-far.731140/

Fury 1 9
Briedis 9
Joshua 1 9
Dubois 9
Gassiev 9
Fury II 8
Joshua II 8
Chisora 8
Bellew 7
Hunter 5/Glowacki 5

With context, I'll take Usyk.

 

Hunter is currently a highly ranked WBA contender.

Bellew won the fights against Haye at heavy...yeah, I know he was shopwarn, but still...

Brieidis beat Charr when Charr was decent and also Perez, who was a successful heavy.

Many felt Huck beat Povetkin.

 

Major Ex Post Facto, here.

 

I was leaning Holmes but when you see the wins laid out side by side like that, it's Usyk for me. Huck and Glowacki were big names on Usyk's kill roster and they aren't even on there. Chisora might arguably be a better W than Shavers or Weaver.

 

Put down the crack pipe.

 

To be honest I agree it's not 100% clear Fury was a top 3 heavyweight.


However AJ at the time had beaten everyone he faced and unlike Fury you can't say he wouldn't have taken on anyone and he avenged his one loss.

It's more of a doubt with Fury considered the comebacks and rising of a few fighters in the last couple years. By the eye test I would say his level against Uysk would put him there but we can't be sure completely. Fury didn't take enough bigger fights in history 22 and 23 to make it completely clear.

 

Over 175 except for when title fights are at 170?

Must achieve except two of the most well loved LHWs didn't bother to be champion in Charles and Tunney.

Conflating modern CW with early LHW is silly. Conflating claim eras with eras that have set divisions is silly. claiming a man is in a weight division based solely on his reported weight is like the very definition of pasting modern ideals over past situations ESPECIALLY when you know damn well the claims era is all about sales and consensus.

Can't acknowledge a real division but can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to force the lack of enforcement to fit into eras of enforcement. But surely you're fair about it

 

If we were to go for 9th, 10th, 11th place, we would conclude that Usyk's resume is better, because there are Tonny Bellew, Marco Huck...
Although I voted for Holmes.

 

Including cruiser is always tricky, because his do you know some of those wins (Huck, Głowacki, Gassiev) rank in the top 10.