Was GGG a better talent than Bivol & Beterbiev

Man, I miss GGG. Some great posts here. All three are sufficiently distinguishable in terms of their strengths, weaknesses and individual styles that I think it probably mostly boils down to personal preference in most instances. My heart says GGG but, being as unbiased as possible, I'd have to go with them all being level pegging.

 

GG
He fought bums most of his career in the same weight
His fight vs Jacobs is... meh.... let's say a gift, better than a robbery. And he run like a ***** refusing to have a rematch
His fight vs Derevyanchenko is a blatant robbery
He lost or draw everything else

Bivol
He fought bums most of his career in the same weight
He won to a blown up welterweight in canelo who very clearly does not belong to LHW
He won to a guy whose best victory is robbing him

Beterbiev
He spent all his pro career rabitpunching tomato cans in the same weight
His best win is a robbery vs a guy whose best victory was a blown up welter

I dont see a lot of differences between them all, tbh.

Why dont you guy hug Usyk's nuts instead of those guys'? Usyk's nuts deserve your hugs way more than those guys. Real eastern europe talent, pure raw talent. Nothing to do with those other guys.

 

I will admit that I have not bothered to watch Bivols fights all that close. He dominated Canelo but so did a 152 pound Mayweather. With Bivol being a solid light heavyweight or cruiserweight sized man this suggests that his "mastery" isn't all that. Unless we want to talk about John Ruiz mastery of utilizing the clinch and favorable referees. Most fighters do something right but you can't talk about mastery here, a masterful boxer would have koed tiny Canelo. Never in a 100 years would Canelo have stood upright for 12 vs a prime and inspired Roy Jones jr.

This just goes to show really that Bivol and Beterbiev really aint that special. Or wait, when are they scheduled to fight for a slice of the heavyweight championship?

 

Well, it is unjust. He earned the wins, so he deserved credit for his effort, not the other guy. Some how the other guy gets the credit. For either fighter, it is the best win of their career, but give to Canelo, why not? Easy come, easy go.

 

He’s more skilled than Bivol. Better jab, superior punch selection, can fight from all ranges.

Probably equally skilled with Beterbiev. The main weakness these guys had was being aged out by the competition.

 

Definitely not. Much more one-dimensional than Bivol and I don't think he's near as good as Beterbiev either.

 

"Some how"?

It's no mystery my man. You may feel that it was unjust because you had GGG winning. Understandable and acceptable stance. But to be oblivious to the work Canelo put in against GGG, to ignore the kind of bombs he landed on GGG, and to the extent that he outboxed GGG in many of the rounds, particularly in the first fight, you're doing a disservice to yourself.

But, in the end, who got the decision doesn't stop you from rating him against Bivol or Beterbiev in any way you want, so why limit yourself to the decisions that you don't respect anyway? And if you're comparing him to Bivol, well there's just as much room for scoring swings there, as much of this forum doesn't believe Bivol should have won *only* 7-5 against Canelo, they believe it should have been much wider, against a much slower and heavier Canelo who gassed harder than the younger fresher closer to his natural weight Canelo who fought GGG the first 2 times.

The common theme here is that, in several of Canelo's big fights, the majority of this forum isn't giving Canelo the kind of credit that the judges do. And rather than complain about it, how about try to understand it and accept it, even if you don't agree with it. That's what I've tried to do, rather than cry about decisions you disagree with, which of course you are well within your right to do, how about show some respect to the man who went to war with GGG 3x, beat that boy down twice, and the first time, if we're honest, out-slicked GGG, gave him footwork and upper body movement that GGG had never seen before, set traps for the man and landed bombs on him, etc, etc. Canelo surprised and befuddled GGG with his surprising footwork and seeing GGG largely being unable to cut off the ring and land significant shots was jarring to GGG fans. Don't get me wrong, he found the range in rounds 7-9 and landed some good shots on Canelo from time to time, mostly jabs, but who landed the better shots throughout the fights. You know deep down the answer, but your fandom doesn't allow you to admit or express that. But that's OK, no worries bro.

As I've said many times, thinking GGG won, scoring it for him, no issue there. But to act oblivious, to not give Canelo credit for what he did against GGG, that's where you lose me. And for the purposes of this topic, is largely irrelevant.

 

7-5 x3 and a 116-112, 117-111, 114-114 MD were "dominations" were there, the latter at 152 lbs which advantaged Mayweather. Hardly something to brag about to drain your opponent like that then struggle throughout, only for it to be spun by the larger boxing community as some kind of domination. Smoke and mirrors, but hey, that's your story and you're sticking to it.

What you fail to realize is that Canelo was having his way with Bivol for the first 4 rounds before he gassed due to fighting out of his weight. He also had a broken hand. Excuses, excuses, you could say. Or facts. But putting Bivol Canelo aside, Bivol struggled mightily with a 39/40 year old Beterbiev, who while strong and tough, is hardly the skilled prime operator that Canelo was when he fought GGG the first two times, or even Jacobs for that matter.

"a masterful boxer would have koed tiny Canelo" oh really. Masterful boxers like Lara, Mayweather, Jacobs or Bivol couldn't put a dent in Canelo. Could a prime RJJ have KO'd Canelo? You're using the example of maybe the most explosive and devastating puncher of all-time and saying he would have surely KO'd Canelo.

You're acting like Canelo is post neck injury Vinny Paz or something lol. Canelo has an iron chin, he's pretty much never been hurt through his entire career, he's never been down. What is there to suggest that Prime RJJ would surely stop Canelo. Prime RJJ as devastating as he was had plenty of decisions. Putting the James Toneys or the Bernard Hopkins or the Mike McCallums of the world aside, who he went the distance with. He couldn't even stop Fermin Chirino over 10 rounds for example in 1993. Jorge Castro took him 10 in 1992. Roy couldn't stop these dudes but he would for sure stop Canelo? GTFOH lmao. Reggie Johnson and David Telesco went 12 with Prime Roy but iron chinned never been down Canelo couldn't? Julio César González went 12 but Canelo couldn't? Come on man, get a grip.

Well look, on that point I would tend to agree with you. I rate GGG better than Bivol or Beterbiev in many areas. And I do think Bivol is hugely overrated on this forum, despite the the fact that I rate him and give him credit where it's due. Most posters on here seem to think that Bivol would make easy work out of Benavidez for example. Which to me is sort of crazy. Struggling with a 39/40 year old 2x and barely winning a decision the second time doesn't exactly move the needle. On the other hand, Beterbiev is no joke and Bivol did box well, but we need to keep things into perspective.

 

Canelo gets credit from me in the first fight, for proving he belonged in the same ring as GGG, but clearly lost any where from 9-3 to 7-5, the latter being if you are being ridiculously generous to Canelo. In no way was it a draw. For me, in the second fight, Canelo changed his strategy and proved how tough and relentless he can be. He improved upon what he did in the first fight, but still came up short. GGG was the stronger in the championship rounds, and won that one as well. The trilogy fight, Canelo won, but not by all that much. I thought the score cards were correct. Canelo only out landed GGG by 10 punches. While GGG out landed Canelo by lots in the first 2 fights. In reality, its a crime that GGG doesn't at least have one win over Canelo. That being said, i have no problems admitting that Canelo is a great fighter, and did great after his first 2 fights with GGG.

 

^^ Fair enough, I agree with most of that, with the caveat that, sure GGG outlanded him in the rematch, but they were mostly light ineffective jabs. They didn't deter Canelo from coming forward and imposing his will. Canelo was also the aggressor, and effective aggression is part of the scoring criteria. Then there's Ring Generalship, which you would argue GGG was, but the judges didn't agree. GGG's body language didn't give off the impression he was the ring general, which is subjective to an extent, but regardless. Ring Generalship in Fight 2 (rightly or wrongly) was large based on the expectation that GGG wanted a toe-to-toe War, and when GGG fought off the backfoot throwing mostly light jabs, that made it hard to see him as the Ring General. As he didn't Man up and fight the fight he said he wanted. Canelo landed more of the significant shots in both fights 1 and 2, that's why he drew / won. You can disagree with it, and I respect that, but that's what happened.

But let me ask you this, since we're comparing GGG to Bivol and Beterbiev, and it seems we sort of both agree that GGG is largely being underrated here. How do you rate Canelo's performances vs GGG in fights 1 and 2 compared to Canelo's performance vs Bivol? Which version or versions of Canelo were better, the versions of Canelo who fought GGG the first 2 times or the version of Canelo who fought Bivol? And why?

And more importantly, what do you think was a fair score for Canelo vs Bivol? Was 7-5 OK, did you have it a little wider, or did you think it was some kind of a shutout as some Canelo haters seem to think? And this is important in the context of GGG vs Bivol, because if you think Bivol dominated Canelo while GGG drew/lost to Canelo, or even won narrowly as you seem to think, then that's a reason to say Bivol was better than GGG.

But I think we both know that GGG fought the better version of Canelo, at least in fights 1 and 2, when GGG was closer to his prime, when Canelo was younger and fighting closer to his natural weight. Whereas Bivol fought a much different Canelo, with an injured hand, with extra weight that slowed him down and caused him to gas. Even the Canelo who fought the 40 year old GGG after Bivol, Canelo dropped back down to 168, so maybe he was a little more comfortable against GGG there than he was vs Bivol, but still had the injured hand, and still I don't think was the same guy who fought GGG the first 2 times.

 

Peak Beterbiev was better. Not sure about Bivol.

 

Definitely a better talent than Bivol. Pretty close between him and Beterbiev tbh.

 

Lets just start at the beginning. There is no way that Canelo would ever have defeated a prime Jorge Castro, that's simply not possible.

Julion Cesar G was a gigantic LHW not a tiny one.

RJjr didn't want to ko Reggie infront of his wife, if I remember correctly Reggie did visit the canvas a couple of times though.

Against David Telesco he was dealing with a recently fractured wrist.

Canelo had recently been at 147 when the fight vs FMjr came up if I remember correctly, the weight drained argument is nonsense.

I didn't watch the Canelo vs Bivol fight in detail, had no idea that he won the first 4 rounds or that he was dealing with a broken hand. Those guys Bivol and Beterbiev sure don't sound like they will become future hall of famers.

I do remember the FMjr vs Canelo fight though, it was a domination with one of the judges having his pockets full of cash and another also having some $$$ in his pocket and wanting more from golden boy promotions. Be honest, Canelo had no answer for Floyd and got dominated, it was what it was.

 

B

Brilliant post! The only thing I would disagree with is that Canelo was not pre-prime during Golovkin. I think it was exactly the start of his prime. Overall I would rate them in this order..
1- Canelo (because of all his other accomplishments)
2- Beterbiev
3- Golovkin
4- Bivol (most now have Bivol #2 after beating biev and canelo, but as you mentioned biev is old and canelo didn't belong in there)
Beterbiev and Golovkin could easily be at the top, if only they had the fights to make.

 

Talent wise he's better than both. He was an extremely well rounded fighter. The other two are specialists in their own niches. I can't see Bivol slugging it out with the best nor can I see Beterbiev fighting a technical jab fest. GGG could do both things.