Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

Vitali, Joshua, Andy Ruiz, Zhang, Arreola, Beterbiev, Crawford, both Charlo’s, Tarver, Rigondeaux, Danny Jacobs, Donaire, Bakole, Tank, Jarrel Miller, Broner, Amanda Serrano, Margarito, Paul Williams, Teo, Estrada….

Zhang stood out for perfect punch placement, Beterbiev had clubs like a heavyweight and used angles, the Charlo’s both had one punch power, and Broner and Tank stood out for little guys. Joshua could also crack.

 

Wow, that's where my mom's side of the family is from. I have 2 aunts, 1 uncle, and more than a dozen cousins nieces/nephews and a grandfather who lives in Buffalo.

 

Aren't you Sudanese as well? Pretty good chance I know your family. Sudanese community is very connected over here.

We could very well be related.

 

You've got owned in here more times than a horse has ****ing hair recently, well, forever really

I think i'll trust my own judgement on what is ridiculous, thanks.

 

That's so funny

 

I did not use power vaguely. I made sure to point out Power and Force in that post were used properly.

So, sure, KO vs TKO has flaws but most of that's already debated. Do I need to rehash undisputed stances and such? These dudes is champions, they have champion records and champion resumes and fought the best in their era. There's a HUGE difference between Clark's opposition and either champions and while many here may argue for Foreman's resume over Marciano's or vice versa what no one here has the neck for is to argue Clark's are even comparable.

So, c'mon, you know you went straight to absurd to illustrate a point that is exaggerated when brought back to the principles actually in question and it's a bit od old hat at this point in the convo. IMO. I mean I'll damn well do it if you like but I don't think we need to.

That said, the entire reason I pointed out force and power is because what you guys are asking is not the terms you are using and the mindset everyone seems to have is inhumanly limited. I did not tell you I know who hits harder. I did not tell you I know who causes more damage. I told you Foreman hits with more force and Marciano hits with more power.

If you don't like KOvsTKO then use your eyes.

George Foreman is only a powerful puncher to boxing fans who have no idea what power actually means and use power as a catchall when they could mean energy or force. Often, using context, I am able to key into what youse mean. "Pushing Power" literally is not a thing! That is force.

When Foreman moves someone with his fist, which is often and most fights, he's not displaying power, that is force.

When watching the Suzie Q notice Walcott is not lifted off his feet. Because power is not force.

If a man weighs 220 pounds, and gets hit with 550ft-lbs, how is he still standing? The energy got converted into power when kinematically transfer into the body took place. Where as a 220 getting hit by 550ft-lbs and thrown across the ring just received force. The difference in delivery can be found in the difference in technique, mainly, kinematic chains or their lack of.

An elephant is powerful. Due to the structure of its trunk an elephant finds it difficult to transfer its energy into power when fighting a goose. The goose is small, the kinematic chains are not there and the body's inertia is negligible to the energy stored by the trunk of the elephant. Though an elephant is powerful the elephant can only transfer force to the goose without grasping or stomping. Slapping a goose with the trunk of an elephant is never going to transfer anything but force.

I'm not guessing. I do not think. Like everything else in a record, the stats can only allude so much. Finding a flaw in a stat without even trying to use it as the supporting evidence it's been claimed to be is, you know, bit short sighted and stubborn.

 

No, the fundamental difference is Bethea's manager, corner, and Bethea himself initially all argued vehemently against the stoppage. And, originally, Bethea's manager claimed the referee was "in the bag" ... and that was all widely reported.

The fact that the story changed isn't surprising.

It was a way to stop people from bringing up what was actually going on there at the time ... that fans were complaining loudly about the stoppage and all the other bad outcomes that were happening in Chicago, so many fighters were complaining (including champions like Basilio about Chicago in particular) that Congress launched an investigation into organized crime (and eventually ran them out of the sport).

I'm going off what EVERYONE can see in the ring. And what Bethea's manager ORIGINALLY said, not the story days later. There is no visual evidence Bethea lost one tooth in that fight, let alone seven. The video of the fight doesn't show it. Photos don't show it.

Bethea fought for years afterward and had 20+ fights later, many against big name fighters, and you guys can't find one photo of him (prefight, postfight, in the ring, out of the ring) with a single tooth missing, let alone what would've been basically all of them in the front of his mouth.

It's part of the Liston myth. Truth is, Bethea would have to be a zombie to get seven teeth blasted out of his skull and just stand there yelling and arguing at the ref about stopping it.

If you've seen someone get their teeth knocked out, they don't tend to act like Wayne Bethea. If you ever saw anyone with seven teeth knocked out, you probably saw them pried out of a car after an auto accident. And they weren't arguing that they were fine and demanding to know what you're doing.

As for Ali-Cooper, it was also filmed and there was no evidence to support what Dundee was claiming, and it was in front of a wider live audience (35,000) that could confirm it didn't happen, and yet Dundee still tried to pass along his lie for decades.

And even though the film didn't show a delay, everyone just agreed with Dundee and assumed something was missing from the film.

I'm not saying Liston didn't beat Bethea. I'm saying, when the fight was stopped prematurely (for that time period), an excuse was made to stop fans from trying to lump it in with all the other bad outcomes going on there. It went from a possible quickie stoppage to a dismissive ... Oh, you don't know how badly he was injured, move on now.

People (particularly back then) believed a good story, even if film and photos clearly didn't support it.

 

And the search for pictures of Bethea displaying a dazzling row of pristine, undamaged teeth? How's that going?

 

4-days ago in this thread, you posted - "It's hyberbole. It went from his gums were bleeding to....60+years later......he got seven teeth knocked out".

Now you claim the story was concocted "days later".

I have no idea if Liston knocked out Bethea's teeth. The change in the period of time that you've claimed elapsed between the fight & reports that Bethea's teeth were knocked out, is as notable as it is substantial, though.

 

The biggest parts of the Clay-Cooper 1 story for 60 years were
1. Clay got floored
2. Between rounds his glove had to be replaced which gave him more time to recover
3. He cut Cooper in round five and the fight was stopped.

But physical evidence of point #2 was never available, because it never happened. People believed it anyway, though, because that was the story. It was repeated thousands of times, even when film didn't back it up. People assumed film was just "missing or something."

It wasn't missing. It didn't happen. But everyone believed anyway.

If there was no physical evidence that a guy with a fan strapped to his back crashed into the ring during Bowe-Holyfield II, causing a delay - NO FAN, NO MAN in a jumpsuit and helmet soaring through the air, NO VIDEO of anyone crashing into the ring ropes and getting pummeled, no photos ... and the film just showed Holyfield and Bowe fighting for the whole round ... call me crazy, but people might not believe it happened.

Well, the BIGGEST story, the ONLY thing you guys bring up about Liston-Bethea, is Liston knocked out seven of his teeth.

That is an outlandish claim. That would be a massive injury ... quite visible, in fact, a major head trauma.

But you can't provide any physical proof. No photo. No video.

The videos (live and on film) of the fight don't even back it up ... which is most glaring.

It looks like a fight that was stopped early and the guy who lost and his whole team start yelling at the ref, complaining of a quick stoppage, because that's what it shows.

As Ali-Cooper I proved to us, if the biggest thing that happened during a fight back then - the only thing people today STILL bring up, like they did in this thread - ISN'T there on film, or in photos, then it probably didn't happen.

But it's part of the Liston myth, and people don't like when myths are shattered.

 

The Sudanese blood is about 4-5 generations back in my maternal grandfather's side. My genes are all over the place.

 

Power is power.

Foreman had lifted the 217 pound Frazier off his feet with a single uppercut delivered using ridiculous arm strength and leverage.

Foreman, despite having a year long layoff and his confidence shattered from his first loss, pounded the rugged and tough Lyle into the canvas for a 10 count. The same Lyle who had just survived and won a brutal war with the hard hitting legend Shavers.

Foreman sent Cooney's mouth piece flying into the 2nd row of the audience with one punch.

Foreman hit Holyfield so hard, Holyfield asked his corner if his teeth were still there.

Foreman broke the orbital bones and burst blood vessels in Chuck Wepner's skull when he had less than 6 fights. I think Wepner said it was "like someone taking a railroad spike and bashing it into your face over and over".

Foreman popped Morrison's eyeball out of it's socket with a jab.

Foreman hit Moorer so hard, Moorer needed 36 stitches and he was sprawled out in the canvas for several seconds after the KO.

If you think all these absurd feats are due to force alone and not punching power, I don't know what to tell you. And no, Rocky doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as Foreman in any universe. Rocky often had to land a barrage of clubbing shots across half a dozen rounds or more to finish off his best opponents (most of whom were smaller, older, worn out fighters).

Not sure what any of this has to do with Liston and Wladmir's resume comparison tho. Might be worth a thread if it's own if you think power vs force is such a contentious topic.

 

So, no answer to my question, or any reference at all to your idea that Bethea was so famous that it should be easy to find pictures of him displaying his dentistry. I guess you've thought it over and realised how nonsensical it is. We'll set it aside along with your easily disprovable claim that no one ever mentioned Bethea's missing teeth until "60+ years later".

Which leaves you with nothing but endlessly repeating your opinion that Bethea looks ok to you, and therefore his manager and the state commission were both lying when they said he lost teeth.

 

What question?

Where is your photographic evidence even one tooth was knocked out? I posted the video. There is no evidence in the fight at all that it happened.

There are any number of pictures of Bethea with his mouth open after the Liston fight, most of them in fights. There aren't any missing on the bottom.

(Zoom in) https://s.turbifycdn.com/aah/yhst-4...berger-antonio-herrera-vs-juan-ramirez-23.jpg

Where are the missing teeth pictures? You're claiming seven got knocked out. Did he lose all seven teeth on the top? (You guys are the ones making the claim ... which teeth were knocked out?)

I'm saying you can't find any because it didn't happen. Of course, there are no missing teeth pictures.

This is how much space is taken up by three missing teeth (from a movie). How much space is taken up by seven missing teeth? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GaC7O-jb0AMt67o?format=jpg&name=large

ARE TWICE AS MANY teeth missing when the referee removes Bethea's mouthpiece as there are in that photo above? Are any? Have you ever seen someone getting seven teeth blasted out of their heads? Because you didn't see it in Liston-Bethea.

And his manager, who RAILED against the referee (I posted the articles) and officials ON CAMERA and afterward, changed his tune and WAS CLEARLY responding sarcastically.

When newspaper writers asked him about screaming the referee was "in the bag" ... Bethea's "set straight" manager said what "he meant to say" was "Liston bagged him early."

I know sarcasm doesn't translate to print very well, but if you didn't pick up on that, you were purposely ignoring it.

Repeat the same "outlandish myth" all you want.

But Liston-Bethea isn't an example of anyone getting their teeth knocked out in fight. Let alone seven. The amount of blood and gore coming from the mouth would've been obvious. And Bethea is face forward looking at the camera when the fight is stopped, and there's no evidence of anything except a bunch of guys yelling at the ref for stopping it.

 

There are any number of pictures of Bethea with his mouth open after the Liston fight, and yet the one you picked was a fuzzy action shot where you can see a glimpse of his mouthpiece. If that was the only kind of picture we had of Leon Spinks we wouldn't know he was missing teeth either.

This is amazing. It's nearly a week now since I explained to you that Bethea's manager told the press that his fighter lost seven teeth. It's taken you this long to come up with the theory that he was being "sarcastic".