Younger Joe Frazier with Foreman II style

The change in style for Foreman II delayed the inevitable for a few rounds in that fight, but I don't think that ever would have been the right style for him. Joe was going to have to swarm, and pay a price in the process, to ever beat Ali, or most of the other notable opponents he defeated.

 

It wouldn't work. Joe did not have a right hand that could threaten Foreman.

Joe was never exceptionally quick on his feet even when young. What he was extremely good at was cutting off the ring vs movers like Ali by working their body, trapping them in the corner and cutting off their exits by leaping in with hooks. It wasn't Frazier's speed that allowed him to cut the ring vs faster opponents, it was rather an immaculate understanding of where the faster man was trying to move to and to cut off those angles through anticipation before the faster man even moved to those places.

Joe isn't a mover. He does not have exceptional foot speed to dance away from Foreman. He needs to hit him with something to make Foreman reluctant to come in. Young George was quite quick on his feet and was very hard to stay away from.

Young Foreman was not a defensive genius but for some reason, he knew how to avoid left hooks. Watch Foreman Frazier 1 and 2. Foreman blocked, partially blocked or completely avoided majority of Frazier's left hooks. This left Joe with 0 offensive weapons.

So much as it pains me to say it, Frazier does not have the height, reach and footspeed to stay away from the taller longer armed man. Joe had pretty quick feet but nothing extraordinary like Tyson. Foreman would have zero concerns with Frazier's straight right hand. Frazier didn't exactly have a Tyson like right uppercut and i don't recall him throwing left uppercuts either. That means Joe had one offensive weapon: the left hook. And for some bizarre and cruel reason, Foreman was an expert at blocking left hooks despite being open to other punches.

I love Joe and wish he fought Lyle or Shavers instead of Foreman. But he isn't beating George. Just doesn't have the exceptional foot speed needed to stay away.

 

Way back I read that Frazier actually used the jab & right hand a lot more than he normally would vs. George "Scrap Iron" Johnson. Anybody know the details of what went on in that one...whether Frazier kept Johnson at a distance for stretches of that fight, or did he employ his usual swarming style? Not finding many details on this fight.

 

I haven't seen it but you have piqued my interest.

 

Oh sorry i misunderstood.

To answer, it wouldn't work vs Ali and others. Frazier needs to go forward to land his left hook. Landing his left hook while moving backwards and retreating would greatly reduce his effectiveness. He might still beat Ellis and Quarry but i don't think he beats Ali moving around. He needs to move towards his opponent to win.

 

Frazier's aggressive style wasn't the problem. His over reliance on his left hand was the problem. A lot of former champions such as Braddock, Joe Louis, Emile Griffith, and Archie Moore mentioned Frazier's depending too much on his left hook would eventually catch up with him, which it did.

Even with the tactics he had in the second Foreman fight Frazier kept instinctively moving in to throw the left hook.

Here is a piece with George Benton talking about trying to develop Frazier's right hand going into the Thrilla in Manila to make Frazier a more versatile fighter.

Georgie Benton is Joe Frazier's right hand man. This is not an idle designation. It does not mean that Benton, a fine middleweight out of Philadelphia a few years ago, is Frazier's majordomo, the plotter of Frazier's plans, or his confidante. Benton is in charge of the massive movement to make Frazier remember that he has a right hand.

With only a few exceptions, Frazier has always fought a bobbing, moving-ahead fight. His right hand, educated in defense, has been useful in warding away left hands that opponents have hoped will reach Frazier's head. But it has been a defensive utensil. Benton's tasks is to regroup Frazier's offensive reflexes, to make him eager to throw a right hand anytime a target for such a punch appears or when strategy demands it.

"Joe always has had a good right," Benton said. "But everybody knows what a great left hook he has. Joe sure knows it. So, after Joe cools a lot of people with that hook, why he's looking to throw it. After a while he got so used to throwing it, that's all he looked for. He got the finisher, all he got to do is land it. Sometime that ain't enough."

This in not gym philosophy that Benton picked up in the 21 years he has spent in boxing. It's a lesson Benton learned, too. There was this night at the old Madison Square Garden about 10 years ago when Benton, riding on a crest of super victories, met Ruben (Hurricane) Carter. The winner was to fight for the middleweight crown that Joey Giardello wore. Carter won.

But Carter won because some rare paralysis had overtaken Benton. Benton's legs, a ring choreographer's dream, performed as they always did. His left hand, a swift rapier, was sharp and cutting. His right was missing.

"I don't know what happened," Benton was to say during his lament after the fight. "I couldn't get off. I wasn't reacting. Where the hell did I leave my right hand?"

Benton began working out in gyms when he was 11 years old, when a wooden crate had to be placed under the speed bag so Georgie could reach it. He began fighting at 16. He quit five years ago when he was 37. And in all those years, Benton could not rely on his right hand to be a mechanized part of him.

"When I was a kid, the thing was boxing. I learned to box: stick the left, block the the right, step to the side, hook. When I started growing up and putting on weight, I had to learn to fight, too. I had to learn I had a right hand. It turned out to be a good right hand, but a right wasn't a punch I was programmed for. I always had to pull the trigger. You know ... there's the target, aim, squeeze. Cotcha. Joe's like that, but different, too."

"Joe grew up throwing both hands. He just got into a bad habit. Success spoiled Joe Frazier. His left became so good, he forgot about the right. Joe Frazier was a great fighter, but maybe not a complete one. With a right hand Joe gotta be unbeatable. And now Joe has got a right hand. He is a complete fighter. I'm happy for Joe. And I'm happy for me,, too. Georgie Benton is back in boxing. I'm involved. Ain't that great?"

Benton's involvement rises above the pleasure achievement can produce. He is part of a former champion's entourage and this means luxury hotels and luxury rooms and a swimming pool which allows him the warm atmosphere in which he can recall, without regrets, the night he couldn't pull the trigger.

Benton and everyone concerned with Frazier seem certain a paralysis will not overtake Frazier tomorrow night when he grapples with Muhammad Ali for the heavyweight championship Frazier once owned.

"You'll see," Benton said. "You'll see."

Frazier's activities were limited to a jog today. He has sequestered himself, and Eddie Futch, Frazier's trainer, says it will be that way until fight time. But, according to Futch, it isn't a nervous seclusion. "Joe ain't never been happier, surer. He's a pleasure to see," Futch Said.

Frazier has made the change in public. For most of the past week Frazier's training performances had been sluggish, his words terse and his temper short. Then came the publication of Ali's marital problems and Frazier perked up. It was as if he had been convinced that Ali was also a frail human.

On Thursday, after the Ali disclosure, Frazier sparkled in the training ring. He joked and laughed and the laughs weren't forced. Reporters were invited into the bedroom of his suite and he was sitting on the bed with a woman. "I want y'all to meet my girlfriend," he said. And after a pause he added: "And my wife." Ali's torment is Frazier's elixir.

And today he said, "He's [Ali] going to have more troubles, wait and see."

And Frazier held up a fist when he said it. His right fist.
https://imgur.com/x1X3tGX

 

Thanks for this post.

 

To put it simply,,,no.

 

This is an excellent post. Thanks for this. I wonder what could have happened if Frazier developed his right hand from the day he turned pro.

 

It definitely would n't have worked with Ali. The main reason why Joe would always give Muhammad a war was because of his pressurising style. If he'd stood off more Muhammad would n't have found Joe quite so much trouble.

 

I don't know if that was his natural style so not sure.

 

Good interesting post.
Can't ever imagine Joe with out that scorching left tbh.
Or him going through a series of fight mainly using his right.

 

He could use both to be honest. Like Tyson did.