What if? Ali v Liston rematch.

Ali had his number and the mental edge. He outclasses Sonny and stops him again.

Sonny wasn’t going to be any faster than he was in the first fight no matter his conditioning.

And the fight being postponed is the lousiest excuse for not continuing to train. Wasn’t one of his fights with Floyd also postponed. Be a professional … these things happen and you’re fighting to regain the biggest prize in all of sport. If that’s all it takes to discourage someone from preparing, they weren’t too keen to begin with.

 

Trying to corner a young, quick athlete like Ali is a task almost no one could have accomplished, much less a past his prime older than most knew Sonny Liston. Still I believe it would have been a better fight

 

Gilbert Rosen of Sports Illustrated stated this about their originally scheduled rematch at Boston Garden:

"ALTHOUGH HE IS THE BETTING FAVORITE IN HIS RETURN BOUT WITH THE CHAMPION IN BOSTON NEXT WEEK, LISTON WILL BE ON THE SHORT END OF PHYSICAL AND TACTICAL ODDS." ...Liston has also divested his body of so much weight (last weekend he weighed 208, compared to 218 for the Miami fight) that he no longer resembles himself. It is chiefly from his hips and buttocks, so that he looks strangely deformed, his head huge and unsettling, like some monstrous, morose dwarf. 'I'll be able to bend easier,' he explains....Only rarely does he punch in combinations, and he never throws a straight right hand to the body...To defeat Clay, Liston must stalk him, not chase him...He must cut the ring in half, which he learned to do for the first Patterson fight...'Liston should be working on a straight right hand to the body' says one of his sparring partners, 'but he don't seem able to throw the punch that way'...He must throw the right hand--in which he has so little faith...one can only conclude Liston will not win...The choice is inescapably Clay---by a knockout."

That article is titled, "STILL HURT AND LOST," dated November 16, 1964.

What Rosen articulated makes it perfectly clear that there was ZERO percent chance Liston could somehow defeat a still growing and strengthening Ali. He made it absolutely clear that Sonny's only hope was to somehow pull off a knockout, and that simply wasn't going to happen. In Lewiston, Liston did not attempt to cut off the ring, but indeed chased him around, and where was the straight right to the body or combinations? If he'd been trained to cut off the ring, throw combinations and develop his straight right to the body prior to the originally scheduled rematch in Boston, surely we'd have seen indicators of those tactics in Maine. During that brief activity in Maine, we saw none of that, no steps to the right, no straight rights to the body, and no attempts at combinations. As Rosen essentially wrote, "Same old, same old."

Maybe Liston lasts longer, but he'd been permanently defeated psychologically at Miami Beach. Ali was inside his head.

In Boston Garden, as originally scheduled, Sonny Liston's only chance would've been if Ali had been struck with his inguinal hernia attack between the opening and final bells.

With both in peak condition, Liston at 208 and a bigger and more muscular Ali at 216, the GOAT easily wins every round until Sonny and Willie Reddish stop it between rounds. That can happen anytime after round eight, when Liston is mathematically eliminated from winning a decision, barring any unlikely knockdowns scored by Sonny. (For their actual bout on May 25th in Lewiston, Ali came in at 206, Liston 215.)

Today we know that Sonny had diseased lungs. Not only was that determined by his 1970 autopsy, but Cosell made note of his huffing and puffing as his July 1968 bout with Henry Clark proceeded. If his lung issue had already begun by 1964, then that combined with the fact he'd had four bouts shorter than the amateur limit over the preceding three years and was getting significantly older, there's simply no training methodology to compensate for competitive inactivity.

Could any version of Liston have beaten the Ali of 1965-1967? Absolutely not! Muhammad was too durable, too experienced and had grown taller since their first match, along with adding an inch of muscle to his forearms, two to his forearms and thighs. He was 202 for Doug Jones and a physically immature 206 for Cooper I. His upper back and shoulders were noticeably larger and more muscular for Liston I, enabling him to withstand shots better if he did get hit.

Liston had superb fundamentals with his jab, cross and hook. It was exactly that combination that he'd later deck Leotis Martin with. Inside, his left hooks and right uppercuts to the body were ponderously effective, but he wouldn't likely be in a situation where he'd have a chance to unload body shots. (I do consider him to be a superior boxer and body puncher to Foreman, and favor Sonny to knock George out.)

Marty Marshall clobbered Liston from one of those bizarre angles where Marshall planted with power. We see this in his bout with Harold Johnson. That's exactly what Ali did to master boxer Zora Folley. I don't expect a corner retirement this time. Ali seriously buckled and forced Liston into retreat with a third round right. Sonny could go in three rounds of a Boston rematch, as happened to Big Cat, London, and a number of other three and four round stoppages Ali posted during the 1960's.

 

The Rumble was postponed . It gave Ali no pause.

 

When you’re in the best shape of your life and your fight gets postponed, the only way you aren’t still in the best shape of your life a few months later when it happens is through poor character and laziness. He was already in shape … he just had to stay in shape. Like, you know, go to the gym and do your roadwork.

Ali was in fantastic shape when the Foreman fight was postponed and he was in fantastic shape when it happened.

I always loved this saying by Roy Jones Jr: “God puts obstacles in our way to make sure we really want what we say we want.” (And if your belief system is different, you can substitute ‘providence’ or ‘life’ for ‘God’ — it amounts to the same thing.)

Sonny didn’t really want it. If he did, he’d have had the resolve to keep training.

 

What is the question, then?

I’m saying Sonny’s actions speak to his character:

He quit on his stool when he wasn’t getting beaten to death nor had one arm dangling by his side, useless, and gave up the biggest prize in all of sports. He allegedly had something wrong with his shoulder that made him quit, but in the sixth round (before quitting) he threw 27 lefts and 4 rights. Most were jabs, a few were hooks, but he landed solid and meaningful punches but with the jab and the hook. So he could still use the left hand, yet decided to quit because Ali was pot-shooting him and he saw where it was going.

According to you and the popular account, Liston was in great shape for the rematch and it got postponed and he went straight to a bar. OK, fine, take a few days and knock back some cold beers and maybe a few mixed drinks. Hell, go on a week-long bender. You’ve got time. Then get back in the gym — that’s what a fighter with character would do. Instead, he just said **** it and gave up on training, according to what you’re saying (I’m skeptical that he let himself go completely and quit training entirely). Not the mark of a champion. In fact one of the Patterson fights was also postponed and he managed to show up ready to fight.

We all saw what happened when the rematch did occur. The big bully was cowed by the man who had already beaten him and saw what was coming. Any way you want to parse what happened in Lewiston, it doesn’t add up to Liston showing character or resolve in any way. He submitted, just as he did on his stool in the first fight. Ali stood up to him and he wanted no part of it.

So if the question is what would have happened without the postponement, my answer is a man of low character as Liston clearly showed himself to be at this stage wasn’t going to suddenly become better. He couldn’t even do much to take advantage of it when he had Ali blinded for a round. No way he beats Ali or is any more competitive than he was in the first fight, and my belief is Liston gets taken out or bows out pretty early. That’s who and what he is by this point.

I don’t believe sports build character. I 100% believe it exposes it (and lack of it). Sonny exposed himself.

 

Liston was lighter than in the first fight and the favourite, and I've never seen any articles before the fight saying he was in poor shape.

I've heard the story that reporters at his sparring sessions saw how badly he did, but if so where did they write about it? Show me something from the actual time, not only stories from many years later. OtherwiseI I call BS on this.

 

I’m saying that is as likely myth-making excuse — yeah, Liston probably was in really good shape, but the notion that the fight was delayed and he walked into a bar and stayed there until he went to the ring (as it is sometimes somewhat painted) is balderdash.

I answered how I think it would go and why. Isn’t that what you wanted?

 

I don't think Sonny Liston was able to get into shape at that time similar to the one he had around 1960. He was already well over 30, had some personal problems and was clearly not as focused on boxing as Ali, who was also difficult for him stylistically.

But if an inactive, injured Sonny could fight an equal fight with Ali, a more active, healthy Sonny could probably win it, but time was not working in his favor, but in the favor of the younger Cassius.

However, to answer the question in the title - Ali is still closer.

Prime vs prime is a different conversation