Could Tony Zale Take SRL?

Why do you say that? What is your reasoning?

 

Hagler told Zale he was doing his best to uphold the great MW tradition.

The Man of Steel will be blasting SRL's body. Ray would try to deal with him the way he fought in Montreal (which was actually close to his typical style --- he wasn't really a cutie). Duran left his body all black and blue after their first match.

Zale was no Duran when it came to big guns and body shots. Tony was also a crafty boxer who could be extremely dangerous in the Championship Rounds.

It's going the distance. Zale's early bodywork proves the key, slowing Ray just enough to not be able to catch up on the cards. SRL may deck Tony at some point, but Zale proved to have more than enough resilience to get up and win in situations where he had no business coming out of top.

Regarding Tony's defense, Billy Conn (coming off of Louis I) praised his ability to protect himself very highly.

 

It was "an issue then" too & yes, he was snookered into accepting 12 rnds in order to make the Hearns fight happen after the WBC threatened to strip Hearns of his jrMW title if he proceeded w/ any 15-rnd fight.

"Although the WBC had cut its championship distance from 15 to 12 rounds two years earlier, Hagler strongly disagreed with the new regulation. His insistence on 15 rounds for his 1983 bout against Wilford Scypion had directly led to the establishment of the International Boxing Federation when Bob Lee’s new organization agreed to sanction that fight at the traditional distance. (Faced with the loss of their sanctioning fees, both the WBC and WBA had belatedly come along for the ride, making Hagler-Scypion the first championship bout ever in which all three titles were at stake.)
But Los Bandidos had grown more insistent with each fight. When Hagler’s 1984 Madison Square Garden defense against Mustafa Hamsho was slated for 15, the WBC stripped him of his middleweight title, even though Marvelous Marvin made the issue somewhat moot by dispatching the Syrian in three. Hagler took the issue to court, where a federal judge ordered Jose Suliaman to restore his championship.

Going into this fight, Suliaman opted for a new tactic: He turned the thumbscrews on Hearns, threatening to strip him of the 154-pound title he had held since 1982, when he captured a majority decision over Wilfred Benitez in New Orleans.

Officially, the WBC position was that Hearns couldn’t fight Hagler without first facing its top-rated challenger, John (The Beast) Mugabi. Unofficially, Los Bandidos let it be known that Hearns would be granted dispensation on the matter, provided Hagler-Hearns was scheduled for 12 rounds and not 15.

While publicly expressing his respect for the traditional 15-round distance, in this instance Emanuel Steward actually preferred the shorter limit, which he figured would be to his man’s advantage. (Had the Leonard-Hearns fight four years earlier ended after 12, the Hit Man would have won on the scorecards.)

The WBC’s decision to lean on Hearns, in any case, produced its desired effect. Rather than face yet another delay, which a Hearns-Mugabi fight would have entailed, the champion’s camp reluctantly acceded on the issue, and the Hearns fight became just the second of Marvin Hagler’s middleweight championship reign to be scheduled for 12 rounds."

The issue didn't become a topic of discission simply b/c he lost, it was acknowledged repeatedly by the commentators throughout the fight, most notably @ the 31:59 mark below, when Gil Clancy describes it as "the 1st battle that Ray Leonard won."

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I’m sure Zale would find pockets of success, but the best Leonard in the mid-150s imo would just be too much for Tony, who was never as savagely aggressive (or as adept at cutting off the ring, nor as good defensively) as Montreal Duran.

And again, I’m not talking about an older Leonard who’s only had one fight in five years. I think that had something to do with Marvin’s ability to rally later in the fight. Lalonde had deficiencies, but as a light heavyweight with startling power in his right hand, I think he has more heft behind what he was throwing at Leonard. Hearns put him down in the rematch, but I really don’t think Donny nor Thomas really had Ray in real trouble. He may have been a bit shaky when they nailed him but he wasn’t separated from his senses.

It should also be noted that Zale was far from iron-chinned. He was stopped five times, but he also went down a number of times in fights he didn’t lose … and not against ATG punchers.

Maybe I’m underestimating Zale, but I just don’t think Ray is the kind of guy Tony could topple.

 

Yeah, Marvin held onto the 15-round ideal for a minute, but most of the article you quote is about Hearns being pressured. Not a word about the champion, Marvin, resisting the idea of 12 rounds vs. Hearns.

Gil Clancy talking about it doesn’t mean that Hagler was resistant to it. Gil was remarking that fighting over 12 rounds favored Ray more than Marvin (not the least because Ray had fought once in five years and wasn’t battle-hardened) isn’t testament to anything. It’s a line from a commentator.

But Marvin had not fought 15 rounds in 2 1/2 years. That’s indisputable fact. To make it like it’s an issue in this fight when it wasn’t for Marvin’s fights in that span is just excuse-making.

Here’s a truth about sport: Losers make excuses; winner adjust. Marvin lost because he fought the most idiotic plan in superfight history, coming out orthodox and trying to prove he could outbox Ray. Hagler and the Petronellis have no one but themselves to blame.

But answer my questions:

1) If Marvin had such a huge advantage in 15-round fights, isn’t he doing EXACTLY what you (and others) accuse Leonard of doing if he insists on fighting 15 instead of 12? Wouldn’t that be him using his power to gain a strategic advantage? Duran beats him if it ends at 12, so should we discount Marvin’s win for not making it a 12-rounder the way some do Ray’s for wanting 12 rounds?

2) About the gloves — how big were Marvin’s gloves (8 or 10 ounces) for all those successful defenses? Should we discount those or diminish those he fought in 8-ounce gloves for using his power to gain an advantage? How is that different?

3) Same thing with ring size. What size was the ring in his other title fights? If smaller, was he using his power to gain an advantage?

If it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander.

 

Leonard. Decision.

I think Tony is going to be susceptible to Ray's flurries. They weren't quite shoeshining but were hardly stiff shots either. Just so accurate & Don't see Zale doing anything but attepting to cover up.

But the judges of modern boxing just love that stuff. And nobody had to remind Leonard to throw them the last 30 seconds of a round. It always made an impression on the judges & Ray has the ringsmarts to play to the judges & go ahead and win rounds.

Tough matchup for Tony to deal with that footspeed and handspeed also. Just cannot see him winning 7 rounds in a 12 round fight or 8 rounds in a 15 rounder against this guy.

 

no. zale gets carved up.

 

Ray Leonard brilliantly picked the moment to come back against Hagler ... he saw Marvin had lost a step of speed and that stylistically if her could get himself back he might win ... he brilliantly played to Hagler's ego which was the purse, allowing Marvin to get the larger purse but he took ring size, distance of bout and glove size ... to Ray's credit he managed an incredible performance considering his level of inactivity but he was also the younger mean coming back to fight the older, slightly weathered older guy .... Marvin overtrained coming in a bit light, over thought it fighting a dumb fight, trying to prove he could outbox Ray and fighting orthodox at the start ( if I remember correctly) instead of attacking like he did Hearns and Ray fought well enough in specific rounds and pieces of others to win / squeak by and take the event ... I think if the Hagler that fought Minter fought the Leonard that fought Hearns at 160 Haggler would have hurt him late ...

 

Zale is in his prime? 15 rounds? SRL orchestrated the 12 rd/big ring for his fight against Hagler. SRL in for some rough time against prime Zale in rounds 13-15. I lean toward Zale, the natural middleweight and a superb one. Great body puncher and that skill would be invaluable against a guy like Leonard.

 

Pokemon card logic! Hagler > Zale and Leonard got Hagler that’s all the elaborating you deserve.

 

Hagler was so eager for the fight that Hagler foolishly met all of Leonards demands . Leonard expertly maneuvered Hagler in the pre fight negotiations.

 

Zale was no Duran when it comes to big guns and body shots?

 

So eager, in fact, that it took Marvin 109 days to decide whether to fight Leonard or retire from the moment Leonard had his attorney, Mike Trainer, reach out to Pat Petronelli.

Not 109 days to negotiate terms — venue, purse money, date or any details — just to say ‘yes, I’ll fight.’

Even Petronelli didn’t know whether Marvin would decide to take the fight or ride off into the sunset.

All of this was reported at the time:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1986/09/...ng-rusty-to-challenge-marvelous-marvin-hagler

 

I Marvin was always mad at Leonard when Leonard invited Marvin and company to an event - which Marvin and company thought was to announce a Leonard vs Hagler fight only to make Marvin sit through the entire event and then announce his retirement. So this was Marvin paying Leonard back for that.
Make no mistake everyone knew this was happening the moment it was announced Marvin just wanted to be in "charge" and Leonard played along.
In all honesty Hagler should have retired because there were signs of Hagler fading and that is the only reason Leonard all the sudden wanted the fight.

 

Leonard would win this.