Ali vs Holmes competition excluding the big 3

Ali 100%

 

It's still Ali, comfortably. He didn't really miss anyone either.

 

apart from Norton 4, I guess he didn't want another fight with Big George

 

Ali by clear decision on resumes.

 

He wasn't ordered to fight Norton for the fourth time. The mandatory was called when Spinks was the champ. George would have earned the title shot if he had beaten Young, but he got whooped.

 

Closer than I thought, honestly.

Both beat Norton, but I never felt Ali convincingly did. The third fight was a robbery, and I thought Norton edged the second. Holmes beat a slightly faded Norton, but clearly, so edge Holmes there.

Mercer and Witherspoon are better than Lyle and Quarry, in my opinion. Shavers fought both, but Holmes handled him far better.

Weaver's a better win than Bonavena. Cooney is a tricky one, tons of talent, but no resume. He looked great vs Holmes but never proved it. Bugner's probably more proven, even if less explosive and less dangerous.

Williams and Bonecrusher were both decent wins. Williams had solid skills but a weak chin though I think Holmes lost that one. Smith was limited but dangerous. Whether they're better than Patterson, Ellis, and Terrell is tough. Patterson's tricky great legacy, but small and chinny, and well past it in the second Ali fight.

I'd probably throw Berbick in for Holmes too. In the end, I lean Ali slightly, mostly on quantity and depth, but when you actually line the names up, Holmes is right there especially if you're ranking how good the fighters were H2H. Definitely closer than people think.

 

I haven't seen Ali Shavers in ages and I didn't score it I think that will be next on my watchlist.

I have heard a few people say Shavers won is that true? I did have a feeling Ali edged it but like I said no scorecard.

 

I watched it a while back and thought to myself that I'd much rather be Shavers than Ali at the end of that fight. Ali would land 4 powderpuff punches on Shavers and then Shavers would land a bazooka back.

 

I agree. You can easily see how some might feel that beating Witherspoon and Mercer is better than beating Lyle and Quarry. Especially considering the fact that Holmes was over 40 when he beat prime Mercer. Prime Holmes wastes any version of Mercer.

 

Honestly, once you take Foreman, Liston, and Frazier off Ali’s record, it gets a lot closer than most people realise.

Ali’s still got some strong wins left, Norton (even though both decisions were debatable), Lyle, Shavers, Quarry twice, Patterson twice, all solid names. Bonavena was a tough guy too, gave him hell before Ali stopped him late. But let’s be real, guys like Patterson were way past it by the time Ali beat them, and Norton gave him fits every time. Even Terrell and Bugner were good contenders, but not exactly all-time elite.

Holmes’ wins, when you look at them properly, hold up really well. Norton was prime when they fought, that was a war, and Holmes edged it. Then you’ve got Cooney, who might’ve been overhyped but was still a real threat at the time, Williams, Weaver, Bonecrusher, Witherspoon when he was young and dangerous, and even Mercer later when Holmes was well past his own prime. Plus Shavers twice, and Holmes had to survive real scares in both of those fights.

If you’re just talking pure name value, Ali’s list probably looks slightly better. But if you’re talking about depth, like, consistently beating big, dangerous heavyweights over a long stretch, Holmes’ résumé in this frame actually might edge it. His era was full of those big strong contenders, and he cleaned them all out.

At the end of the day, Ali’s got the better "highlights," even without the Big 3. The wins over Norton, Quarry, Lyle and Shavers still carry weight historically. But if you’re judging on the full body of work, fight-by-fight, Holmes was incredibly consistent and fought tougher, younger opposition more regularly.

I’d still lean Ali slightly, but it’s nowhere near the blowout people think it is. Without Foreman, Liston, and Frazier on the table, Holmes’ résumé matches up a lot closer than casual fans ever give him credit for.

 

I don't think Patterson was "way past it", especially the 1st time when he was coming off a UD win against George Chuvalo. Even the 2nd time they fought, Patterson was coming off a UD win over a 29 year old prime Bonavena.

 

Yeah, that’s fair. I wouldn’t say Patterson was completely shot either, especially the first time.

When Ali fought him in 1965, Patterson was still a legitimate contender, he wasn’t in his absolute prime anymore, but he was coming off solid wins, still had fast hands, and was a credible threat on paper. Beating Chuvalo by clear decision was no joke, and even though Chuvalo wasn’t elite, he was durable and hard to look good against.

Second fight in 1972, Patterson was definitely older and had more miles on him, but even then, coming off a win over Bonavena, who was a rough, awkward guy and gave most heavyweights a tough night, still showed he had something left. He wasn’t prime Patterson, but he wasn’t a corpse either.

If anything, it’s more fair to say Ali beat a fading but still dangerous version of Patterson twice, not the peak 1950s Patterson, but not completely washed either.

 

Ali and not close.

 

I'm a Holmes fan but it's still Ali by a considerable distance not even debatable IMO.